xsquid

Oh, NOW you say it's sci-fi'ish!
That I can answer: Norman Spinrad's The Iron Dream, published in 1968 or so. It takes the form of an SF novel written by Hitler in 1952, shortly before his death (he had begun writing in the late 1930s). It's a high fantasy with very apocalyptic overtones.
At the end of the book, in the Editor's Notes, we find that in the "real" world, Red Russian hordes have taken over, and only Japan and the USA are still resisting.

But even in that book, Hitler did exist; he had a biography (the editor said he had "dabbled in radical politics" before he turned to writing), and a history. Only his hero, Feric Jaggar, was the myth.

Like I said, Malook; try again.

(PS: Spinrad himself says he wrote the book in a near-frenzy--it took him only six weeks!)

xsquid

In 2000 years, as now, we'll remember Hitler as the butcher he was. How do you regard Genghis Khan, hm? Name five economic accomplishments of the Mongols. Name one.

See? It's the same with Hitler. Only one building constructed by the Nazis still survives (the House of German Art, which is still an art museum). One building constructed, ten million buildings destroyed, mostly by Hitler's doing.

Your witness...

Shadowy Man

But how do you even know that Genghis Khan really existed??

GreggLD1

Mal,

Even though I've never been a "fundamentalist" Christian or a biblical literalist, I was a Christian "believer" in my own way for quite a while. I believed the teachings of Christian metaphysical schools like Science of Mind and Divine Science. These schools believe that Jesus existed, that he performed miracles, and that his physical body had been resurrected as a spiritualized "body."

In my late 20's I abandoned these beliefs, but I continued to believe that Jesus had existed. Now I was more interested in the views of serious scholars and historians who regarded Jesus as a preacher and teacher who was crucified by the Romans and mythologized by his followers.

During this period, I occasionally heard that there were those who regarded Jesus as entirely fictional, and I dismissed such a notion out of hand.

So, I honestly don't blame you if you find the idea that Jesus never existed bizarre. It strikes many ATHIESTS as bizarre. Most people who aren't really knowledgable about the development of the Bible, the Christian faith, and the situation in the Roman Empire at the time Christianity emerged, simply assume that there HAD to be someone named Jesus the Christ at the root of the Christian movement, even if he didn't really do all the things the Bible says he did.

However, once you've familiarized yourself with a number of facts regarding the Bible and the historical situations surrounding the emergence of Christianity, the idea that Jesus did not exist as a historical person no longer seems so far-fetched. In fact, the Bible, Christian history, and a lot of other things start to make MORE sense when you begin with the view that the early Christians worshipped an entirely spiritual being, whose sacrifice and resurrection took place not on Earth, but in an upper-world spiritual dimension.

My point is, the idea that Jesus didn't exist as a historical person is not some desperate, far-fetched theory. An EXTREMELY compelling case, much more compelling than a case for Hitler's nonexistence, can be built for it. And keep in mind, the mythicist case does not "deny" Jesus' existence--it denies his HISTORICAL existence. It simply states that the early Christians believed in a spiritual Jesus, not a physical, historical Jesus. You can actually be a Jesus-myther and still be a Christian--an authentic Christian, one who believes the same thing the first Christians believed!

Now, I suppose it's always possible that in the distant future, people might say that nobody as evil as Hitler could possibly have existed, that he was "invented" to explain the rise of Nazism. However, you would have to get rid of a LOT of evidence before this could happen. Burn every single copy of Mein Kampf, destroy every history book and encyclopedia in the world, destroy all the newsreels and photographs and recordings of the man, all his preserved writings, etc. You'd also have to wipe out all the stuff that's on microfilm, CDs, and electronic databases.

Although it's true that it's been a long time since Jesus supposedly lived, the absence of any reliable independent attestation to his existence is very, very strange. We can pretty much discount the idea that the Gospel stories are reliable histories, because if Jesus had been going around doing the things the Gospels say he did, MANY chroniclers and historians of the time would have taken note of him and would have written about him extensively. You could argue that these records existed but were all destroyed or lost (except for those two controversial passages in Josephus), but you have to admit that this is pretty far-fetched. You have to imagine a situation where Rome saw Jesus and his little band of followers as such a serious threat to the Empire that it engaged in a vast conspiracy to either prevent anyone from writing about him, or to collect and destroy such writings after the fact.

One alternative is to take the view that Jesus existed, but was actually pretty ordinary (although an exemplary Jew) and very obscure, so few people ever heard of him and nobody but his followers wrote anything about him. But this raises the question of why other devout Jews would have elevated him to the lofty heights that they did. Plus, why did the Romans see fit to crucify him if he never did anything worthy of their notice? (The likelihood of the Jews badgering Pilate into crucifying a man who he'd determined hadn't violated any Roman laws is pretty much nil.)

For me, the view that a sect or sects of Jews, influenced by Greek teachings about the Logos/Christ and by the dying/rising savior god cults popular at the time, "discovered" their own dying/rising savior in the pages of the scriptures they obsessed over night and day, makes a lot more sense, especially when you've carefully studied and considered ALL of the arguments supporting this position.

Cheers,

Gregg

Gregg

I wanted to add here--even if you strip away the miracles and legendary occurrences and take the view that Jesus was just a popular, charismatic preacher and teacher who did something sufficiently rash that the Romans were persuaded that he was attempting to incite a rebellion, you would STILL expect an independent chronicler or two to take notice. Josephus, at the least, would have devoted a bit more time to him, and he wouldn't have had nice, or even neutral, things to say. Josephus didn't like rabble rousers like Jesus was supposed to have been--he blamed them for Israel's destruction.

Gregg

a8o

Mein Kampf as a Bible is a fascinating and frightening prospect. Both books essentially chronicle the rise and fall of the vision they document. Beginning with the creation of the world in Genesis and ending...not really ending, for thsoe who believe. There are neo-nazis around who still subscribe to Hitler's views and beliefs and for these people Hitler's legacy is still as very much alive as Jesus' and the Holy Spirit.

Both books are ultimately skewed and if Mein Kampf was taken as an isolated source and if everything was taken quite literally, as many Christians do, its case could be made as strong as that of the Bible. Hell, if enough effort or skill is involved, any case can be made: I recently witnessed a debate in which the war for Iraq was justified. Neither side was incompetant as it was a senior high school debate.

Believe it or not, I had a religios studies teacher in my first year of high school who proposed this theory to us. He ultimately left suspiciously with first change of Headmaster in 15 years and a push towards the school being closer integrated in the Anglican system.

Straight Hate

Jesus was sporting a pretty nice sacred heart tattoo, there! When are churches going to start marketing this hip new image to all the impressionable youngsters? Seriously... there's a pretty penny just waiting to be made!

...'Jesus' brand...

xsquid

I remember seeing Jesus Jeans in Italy years ago...I often wonder how they ever got to market.

Okay malookie, was Iron Dream what you were thinkin' about? 'Cause I'd really like to know where you're going with this...

malookiemaloo

May have been Iron Dream. I'll investigate as best as I can.

All I can say is that back in the late 60's I was gobsmacked at the case against Hitler's existence.

Thanks to all who have responded.

Special thanks to Gregg.


m

Vorkosigan

Thanks to both of you. Greg's post was wonderful, and so was your response, Malookiemaloo.