Coragyps

Jimmy - if you want a Linzertorte of Permian Redbed/gypsum/Redbed/gypsum to throw at a Hovind, I'll contribute a chunk. There's a real nice exposure about 40 feet thick with 1/4 inch layers about 30 miles from here.

Jimmy Higgins

Sounds like you've been to one of these before.

Well, Eric Hovind is doing the talking in Cleveland. Do I have a better shot?

[ May 31, 2002: Message edited by: Jimmy Higgins ]</p>

Jimmy Higgins

Darn it to heck. Just found out where it is. I-71 is a mess. Right off of Bagley Rd. I've been by there many times. Even parked in that Hotel's parking lot when we were doing work in the City of Berea. Now I'll have no reservation on doing that in the future.

Anyone in the "Greater" Cleveland area or even those yahoos like me near Akron, wanna get a group together? Pay the $8, then go to the parking lot and display a whole bunch of truth.

tgamble

nope. I just made it up.

He's never been around these parts. Wouldn't get much support. I hope. Not many overly religious people around here. Over 70% voted to get rid of the denomination school system.

[ May 31, 2002: Message edited by: tgamble ]</p>

UnaffiliatedOld

Yes, I'll try to make it. Keep me informed

tgamble

I'd be surprised if Eric was any more intelligent than his pop. He was brainwashed at a private christian school at several thousand dollars a year.

Quite a feat for a guy who has no income eh?

I think questions that require explanations (ie. source of water) are pointless. He'll just make up some bullshit. On the other hand, questions about psedugenes will probably stump him. Probably never heard of him. Pointing out hovind's lies about similarity might also work.http://home.mmcable.com/harlequin/evol/HovindLie.html

Jimmy Higgins

Tgamble, I agree fully. I've come up with many "great" questions to stop creationists in their tracks. They've all failed. I figure, if I can, come up with a whole bunch of rock core from the Cleveland area and display it right in front of the Hotel. I should bring some soil to, from the lakeshore area, the varved lake deposits. We've got rock core from about two miles away from the hotel at Bagley and Geiger Roads. We've got plenty of soil and some rock, I think, from the airport which is about five miles away from the hotel. I mean the question can go as this, the flooding did one of two things, it either created the varves or it didn't, I don't think it could have done both. At the airport, there is alot of very stiff glacial till. You go dryland Cleveland and there is alot of soft to stiff varved lake deposits. Downtown Cleveland used to be underwater. The areas around it weren't, there is a vast elevation difference, leading to the names Shaker Heights, Middleburg Heights, Cleveland Heights. This would explain those lake deposits being in downtown Cleveland and not the airport. I can't think of a flood model that would allow such variation in soil. This is what I want to exploit.

I also really just want to take a couple of dollys and cart boxload after boxload of soil and rock into the conference room. You can ask all the questions you want, but you can't neglect what is right in front of you. And I can bring cookies too! I make the best chocolate chip cookies in the world. If the truth can't set them free, then perhaps my cooking can.

Duvenoy

Great rant, tgamble! May we have another?

Alas, it's all too, true.

If there's a a bunch of us there, I wish I could make it.

f

tgamble

Perhaps. That thread on rape here (Orangutan Rape. Reproductive strategy?) is just begging for one.

"See? Evolution says rape is ok and natural..."

[ May 31, 2002: Message edited by: tgamble ]</p>

tgamble

Nah, I doubt that will stump him for long. He's a spontaneous bullshit inventer.

What might be more effective is this.

Hovind has made claims about parts of the same mammoth being dated differently. Aquire this paper and bring it to the meeting.

Then stand up and announce that you have the paper, ask him to point out where it says what he claims. He won't be able to do it right? And anyone who doubts you is free to look at the paper for themselves. Hovind is caught in an outright lie and there's little he can do about it.

You could try this with other claims as well (that claim about lava from a 200 year old valcano being dated at millions of years to descredit radiometric dating for example). Present the paper and expose the lie.

Of course, you could ask him if he's serious about his claims that people could kill a t-rex by pulling his arms off. then bring a pet croc for him to demonstrate on. But he'd probably just say that people have changed (evolved? nah, still humans) since then.

Also, get a copy of . "Time Frames: The Rethinking of Darwinian Evolution and the Theory of Punctuated Equilibria by Niles Eldredge" (or just print out the pages below) and ask some rather difficult questions.

<a href="http://home.mmcable.com/harlequin/evol/lies/lie026.html" target="_blank">http://home.mmcable.com/harlequin/evol/lies/lie026.html</a>

"This is an example a flagrantly out-of-context quotation. The first two sentences quoted by Hovind are on page 51 and the third sentence he quotes in on page 52 and in the middle of another paragraph. Hovind quotes Eldredge, without ellipses, as if they are a continuous quote (see the box with the quote in the word transcript)."

Hey Hovind! You call that being honest?!

Also ask how (on his offer) the fuck you're supposed to prove all other possibilities (aside from evolution) false. Ask how you could falseify (for example) appearance of age. Ask him why he (or his father) offered only two grand to prove "a dog and a banana have a common ancestor" and why he wanted a court judge on his panel.

Have fun!

[ May 31, 2002: Message edited by: tgamble ]</p>