echidna

Can someone enlighten as to how well equipped against chemical, biological and gas attack, US forces were in Afghanistan, Somalia or the Balkans ?

I don't recall anthrax innoculations being on the agenda for troops then.

But tear gas is a legitimate weapon of the US army, one which requires gas masks to overcome.

Sue Sponte

The numbers being thrown about have confused me as well. At the beginning of the conflict, there were numerous reports of a division of 8,000 iraqi soldiers surrendering, then over the last few days the Pentagon has estimated the number of POWs at 2,500 to 3,000. Huh? I admit I didn't do all that well at math in college, but these don't seem to equate.

There is no question that the spin machine is working mightily to sway public opinion. A few examples:

1. Leaking the discovery of a "suspected" chemical weapons facility, supported by a general and troops, with the clear intent of leading people to believe the smoking gun had been located. Yesterday, a few stories were run reporting that the investigation of the facility has concluded that no chemical weapons have been present for at least five years.

2. The "uprising" in Basra. ABC is reporting today that mobs of Iraqis created mayhem at the first distribution of aid (food/water), with the crowd chanting support for Hussein and explaining to soldiers that, while they hate Hussein, they have a similar view of the Americans.

3. The "horror" at the Iraqis using "unacceptable" methods of war (prisoner torture/killing, hospitals/schools as military facilities, fake surrenders, etc). This one takes the cake for me. First, the premise for this war is that Iraq is lead by a cruel dictator. Once we arrive, the administration feigns surprise that the Iraqi loyalists fit the bill? What the f$#k were the war planners expecting? They send overwhelming technological force with the thought that there is no way the Iraqis can match our military, then are surprised that the Iraqis don't engage our forces directly? Unbelievable.

Earth to Rumsfeld: the Iraqis are not going to gather at military sites likely to be bombed or line up in the desert to confront the 7th cavalry. You are correct that the U.S. has overwhelming military capabilities, so why on earth did you expect the Iraqis to engage in convential tactics?

Enough from my soapbox.

leonarde

Partial post:Okay:

1) The command staff of the division (commanding officer and probably immediate subordinates) surrendered the division.

2) But (?before and after?) this surrender, there was a diminuation of the division via desertions.

3) Allied troops are in many instances encouraging regular army troops to "go home" since if they are taken as POWs the US/UK has an obligation to feed and care for them, slowing down the advance.

4) Yes, a typical Iraqi division has 8000 to 10000 personnel.

5) But only a small fraction of that division was taken prisoner/interrogated.

Cheers!

lunachick

Ummm. We had a reporter there, and so saw footage of the scene. Yes, the people were desperate for water especially, and were scrambling chaotically for it. There was no chanting for Hussein, though. Just shouting for food and water, it seemed.

However, I can't blame them for hating America as much as they hate Hussein; can you?

Hussein does have some strong supporters, though. And in times like this, they will be even stronger.

seanie

Depends on what you mean by "legitimate".

If what you mean by "legitimate" is "a violation of international law" then yeah.

However since that's obviously not gonna stop 'em using it I think the Iraqis should keep their gas masks close to hand.

Optional

No, there was chanting for Saddam too. One of those 'we give our bodies to defend you saddam' type chants. I didn't see it on tv, I heard it on the radio, a reporter at the scene was describing it, and they played the chanting. They could have lied about WHAT they were actually chanting, but why would they have? They had several clips of the the reporter saying to people, in effect, 'We thought you'd be throwing flowers for us, wassup wit dat?' And most answered that they hate america for bringing chaos, death, sickness, etc. One person, apparently, who didn't want to go on record, pulled the reporter aside and said 'Not all of us love Saddam. But we don't like America either.'

-me

Sue Sponte

"With our blood we sacrifice ourselves to you Saddam Hussein!" they chanted.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/W...an_030326.html

Mr. Superbad

Actually, the commanding officer for the 51st was on Al-Jazeera after the claims that he surrendered saying he didn't surrender, and that it was impostor looking for better treatment as a POW.

leonarde

And how, praytell, do you know it was the commanding officer of the 51st Division? Had you met him before? Sorry, but I had a double dose of Iraqi propaganda in 1990-91: just about everything eventually verifiable claimed by the Iraqi regime turned out to be......false. Sometimes laughably so. Right down to S Hussein's claim of having won a "great victory" in the war.
Cheers!

ex-idaho

The same could be asked of the coalition forces. How did they know that this guy they captured was really the commander of the 51st?