Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Ronin · 10-22-2002, 10:07 PM

Joel ~

While you are still working on my other questions, consider these:

Is God blessing America?

Are we 'under' God?

~ take your time.

Ronin · 10-22-2002, 11:26 PM

As far as why God created humans, my best guess on this one would be for glory and fellowship.

Glory and Fellowship ~ That's what God's God must have forgotten to create for God.

Well, we all need a 'help meet' now and again.

[ October 23, 2002: Message edited by: Ronin ]</p>

HoosierGuy28 · 10-23-2002, 01:01 AM

Perchance,

[quote]By whose definition, though? Would a person need to somehow keep all the Ten Commandments? Is just belief in Jesus enough? What standard are you thinking of for this? Sincerity can be judged by many different ones./QUOTE]

Actually, I addressed this in an earlier post, but I'll just repost my comments on it, and save you the trouble of searching for it.

Quote:

The basics,

I'm sure you know this first one,

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew 22:37
Matthew 22:37
And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
Matthew 22:38
"This is the great and foremost commandment.
Matthew 22:39
"The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'
Matthew 22:40
"On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew 28:19
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
Matthew 28:20
teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So the basis of Christianity is:
1. Acceptance
2. Loving God and others
3. Sharing

So, as far as the standards are concerned, they should be based on those in the Bible, and that's why I wanted to take scripture directly from the Bible to make that point.

And as I mentioned earlier, becoming a Christian doesn't mean one will not make mistakes or do wrong. I don't think that would be a realistic expectation. But we are given a means for redemption which is the main purpose behind Christ dying for us.

Quote:

Yes, and one of the most bitter tends to be over who is a "true Christian" and who isn't. That's one reason I'm not sure what you mean by a "sincere Christian."

That is definitely true. Again, that is why I use God's Word to support what I have to say, instead of trying to fabricate some superficial idea. God's Word is the foundation, and if anyone tries to add or take away from that Word, they are only fooling themselves.

Quote:

Well, thank you for the compliment! I hope you don't mind my tacking on more questions.

Actually, I welcome your questions. So thank you for asking.

Joel

HoosierGuy28 · 10-23-2002, 01:36 AM

Cipher Girl

Quote:

If god is all powerful, all good, and all knowing, then why does evil exist in the world?

No logical fallacies in the answer please.

I'm not sure what logical fallacies you have encountered over this question. I'll attempt to provide answers that are consistent with biblical doctrine, so hopefully my answer will be acceptable to you.

For us to be God's perfect creation, then we would need a will of our own. If not, we would just be like puppets. Adam and Eve were God's perfect creation, and they had to have a will of their own to choose. God did not make them listen. Actually, they were given a command that they willfully rejected.

Quote:

Genesis 2:16
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

Genesis 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Quote:

Genesis 3:4
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Genesis 3:5
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Genesis 3:6
And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

As you can see, they were literally given a command, and they willingly chose not to listen.
At that point, they had knowledge of sin. Most likely, that is why the tree was called "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil". Because of that sin, they experienced a physical and spiritual deadening at that very moment.

Quote:

Genesis 3:12
And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest [to be] with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

Genesis 3:13
And the LORD God said unto the woman, What [is] this [that] thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

Genesis 3:14
And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou [art] cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her Seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Genesis 3:16
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Genesis 3:17
And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed [is] the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat [of] it all the days of thy life;

Genesis 3:18
Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

Genesis 3:19
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return.

Because of their sin and that of the serpent (Satan), they were cursed. Now there is another important thing that is taking place here. In verse 3:15, you will see what is known as the "protoevangelion", which is our first glimpse in the Bible at the Gospel of Christ. Satan had thought he had won by distorting God's creation, and at that point God one-uped him and promised the coming of the Son, and this coming of the Son also gave us a means for redemption, which is why a new covenant was established at the coming of Christ.

If hope that answer was acceptable to you. Thanks for the question.

Joel

Silent Dave · 10-23-2002, 01:50 AM

Joel--

Thanks for your response. I was beginning to think that my question had also been lost in the noise.

You mentioned Jesus fulfilling OT prophecies. Can you give a single example of an OT prophecy that was, beyond reasonable doubt, fulfilled by Jesus?

Dave

HoosierGuy28 · 10-23-2002, 02:36 AM

Buffman,

Quote:

First, thank you for attempting to provide definitve answers to my queries. A very challenging task even for the most devout and credentialed believer in the supernatural. Unfortunately, after over 2,000 years of attempting to find any verifiable evidence to support such claims, they have been unable to do so. Thus they are still unable to differentiate fact from fiction...but continue to claim that they don't need verifiable facts, only faith.

I appreciate your response. I'm sure you realize that we will not likely agree on a lot of things, but my intent is to give a greater understanding of my perspective. I don't feel there has been a lack of verifiable evidence. I think a lot comes down to personal intepretation of any evidence that is presented.

Quote:

Second, since I tend to believe that I have had more personal experiences than you have, does that mean that my experiences can validate and justify my non-supernatural beliefs and make your religious beliefs less than valid/reliable? I believe that is what you have just claimed. Please correct me if I have misinterpreted your statement.

I can understand your point of view concerning this, but let me clarify my position. It's not so much the amount of experience but the actual experiences. I'm not sure of the experiences you have had in your life, but I'm sure we could easily agree that we've probably both have had many experiences that the other has not. I believe in things that are supernatural because, in my lifetime, I have dealt with these types of things. Maybe you have not or maybe you have and not realized it. I couldn't possibly know that. For me to not acknowledge that supernatural things do exist, would for me to contradict my own conscience, when I know for sure that they do.

Quote:

In other words, is personal experience your sole proof for the existence of the supernatural? Obviously you would not be wise to start down that slippery slope. Nor, IMHO, would it be wise to claim that some sort of supernatural world controls the natural world.

No, I wouldn't say that personal experience is my sole proof, but it is definitely part of it. I'm sure that it would be reasonable to say that personal testimony plays an important role in a courtroom, but of course usually there are other evidences that are shown that hopefully will be complementary to that person's testimony. I'm sure that we could both agree that it would be unlikely for me to be able to make some supernatural post in a forum that would convince people that God does exist, so what I can do is speak from personal experience and through personal knowledge. My intent here is not to criticize anyone for any belief or disbelief they might have. I assure you my intentions are good and I'm not trying to force anyone to accept the existence of God if they do not wish to do so. I started this thread so people could ask questions about Christianity and so that hopefully I would be able to give them reasonable or at least acceptable answers.

Quote:

I await your opinions concerning my initial query about the formation and divinity of the various Christian Bibles.

I must apologize for not answering this question. I mentioned in an earlier post that I would rather not deal with what is wrong in other systems of belief. If someone actually uses another version of the Bible, then I would gladly have a one-on-one discussion with them. I assure you that I have studied things such as the apocyrpha rather thoroughly. Actually, while I was studying systematic theology at the university I attend, I would deal with things such as this for about 4 hours in a classroom everyday, and 6-8 hours a day in the library doing research. I'm sure that one of the new members who has recently posted in the introduction area of the forum, Scottsman (Matt), would vouch for me that I am not one to challenge or attempt to correct another Christian belief unless someone with that belief willingly wants to have that discussion with me; as we do not agree on everything. The thing that I feel is most important is the Gospel of Christ and that Christians agree that Christ is our means for salvation.

Quote:

Titus 3:9
But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

What I will do is highly recommend a book that deals with criticisms of Christianity and gives support for the canonicity of the Protestant Bible. "The Evidence That Demands A Verdict" or "The New Evidence That Demands a Verdict" (This is an updated version of the first one) The author for both of these books is Josh McDowell. He also has a section in this book that deals with evidence of the Deity of Christ. I personally have several of his books and I am very supportive of what he has to say.

I hope this adequately answers your post, and I do apologize for not answering your previous question.

Joel

Ronin · 10-23-2002, 02:46 AM

Ah, well ~ always a bridesmaid, never a bride.

You are in company, Joel ~ no Christian has ever been able to openly and honestly address the simple questions I have posed.

I completely understand why you would not ~ and why you avoid other interests that would expose your 'faith' to the warm light of reality.

Many of these infidels have been equally snared at one point in their lives, so be sure that we do not fault you.

My best to you in your life's journey ~ one human to another ~ living, loving, breathing.

HelenM · 10-23-2002, 03:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ronin:
<strong>Many of these infidels have been equally snared at one point in their lives, so be sure that we do not fault you.</strong>

You may have clothed this in courtesy but it's still very patronizing.

Do you like it when Christians claim to have been atheists and say "Been there, done that, know better now..."

*sigh*

take care
Helen

Ronin · 10-23-2002, 03:30 AM

You may have clothed this in courtesy but it's still very patronizing.

Perhaps ~ it surely was not intended to be that way.

However, let us not slay any messengers here as a diversion.

The fact remains that Christians cannot address the questions I have posed.

And Joel has simply kept his Christian blinders on in sure form.

Your first notice of only what you find patronizing of me, the perceived anti-christ, is also standard practice.

Shall I offer you good tidings now, HelenM ~ at the dire risk of imposing upon your Christian sensibilities or merely bow to you gracefully in silence?

K · 10-23-2002, 03:45 AM

Joel,

Quote:

I will gladly look at any proof you feel you have concerning the existence of Zeus, Odin, etc. Also, if you believe the earth is flat and think you have legitimate evidence to support this, then I will be fair and view your evidence.

Allah sent the Prophet to tell us He was real and Mohammad is definitely a historical figure. The ancient Greeks made absolutely amazing accomplishments under the guidance of Zeus and the other Olympians. I have personal experience that tells me the earth is flat.

It would be ridiculous to say that a critical thinker would accept any of these as evidence. Do you have any evidence to support Christianity that is better than these?

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

10-22-2002, 10:07 PM	#121
Ronin Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Mississippi Posts: 5,047	Joel ~ While you are still working on my other questions, consider these: Is God blessing America? Are we 'under' God? ~ take your time.

10-22-2002, 11:26 PM	#122
Ronin Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Mississippi Posts: 5,047	As far as why God created humans, my best guess on this one would be for glory and fellowship. Glory and Fellowship ~ That's what God's God must have forgotten to create for God. Well, we all need a 'help meet' now and again. [ October 23, 2002: Message edited by: Ronin ]</p>

10-23-2002, 01:50 AM	#125
Silent Dave Banned Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Bloomington, MN Posts: 2,209	Joel-- Thanks for your response. I was beginning to think that my question had also been lost in the noise. You mentioned Jesus fulfilling OT prophecies. Can you give a single example of an OT prophecy that was, beyond reasonable doubt, fulfilled by Jesus? Dave

10-23-2002, 02:46 AM	#127
Ronin Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Mississippi Posts: 5,047	Ah, well ~ always a bridesmaid, never a bride. You are in company, Joel ~ no Christian has ever been able to openly and honestly address the simple questions I have posed. I completely understand why you would not ~ and why you avoid other interests that would expose your 'faith' to the warm light of reality. Many of these infidels have been equally snared at one point in their lives, so be sure that we do not fault you. My best to you in your life's journey ~ one human to another ~ living, loving, breathing.

10-23-2002, 03:30 AM	#129
Ronin Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Mississippi Posts: 5,047	You may have clothed this in courtesy but it's still very patronizing. Perhaps ~ it surely was not intended to be that way. However, let us not slay any messengers here as a diversion. The fact remains that Christians cannot address the questions I have posed. And Joel has simply kept his Christian blinders on in sure form. Your first notice of only what you find patronizing of me, the perceived anti-christ, is also standard practice. Shall I offer you good tidings now, HelenM ~ at the dire risk of imposing upon your Christian sensibilities or merely bow to you gracefully in silence?

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.