JL

It is all about image. You'll even find a lot of Christians here who'll tell you that much.

I kind of like to think of myself as it's illegitamate evil spawn.

sullster

Wolf,
Thanks for your reply and it has me thinking about the culture of the South. I once read that the religious culture of the South can be traced to the South's defeat in the Civil War. The dream of an independent nation was lost and the South was devastated. Religion was the only cultural tradition which was not altered or destroyed.

Evangelical christianity was one thing that the South could use to oppose Northern dominance. The North was looked at as godless or a mishmass of heretical sects, such as the idol worshipping catholics. The South lost the war to the collection of Northern evils and immigrant armies according to Southern apologists.

Wolf, do you agree with any of these ideas and what are your views on why the South has such an oppressive religious culture? Just curious.

Chuck

I must say that I never encountered this belief while growing up in the south. Relatively few Southerners, at least in NC, cling to the civil war history. The civil war started for economic reasons, and I do not believe that religion was ever used as a tool to oppose the North.

The South is a very violent place. The reasons for the culture of violence are too numerous and complex to discuss in a forum such as this. The Civil War started for economic reasons and a society with a love for guns. The love for guns remains.

I cannot dispute this theory on the rise of evangelical Christianity in the south, however I will dispute this theory when applied to the survival of evangelical Christianity in the south. "Northerners" are not regarded as "heretics." The prevailing concept of "Northerners" that I encountered in the xenophonic south (which, sadly, extends even to my family) is one of hostile and crafty criminals. As I now live in the "North," I can attest that there is little difference in hostility, craftiness and/or criminality.

Now for my incredibly elitist opinion. Evangelical Christianity survives in the South because it is a means by which the undereducated and financially insecure may surround themselves with people of similar circumstance. The South has a large population of undereducated persons who, quite rationally in most cases, simply gave up higher education for a job in agriculture. I might add that many jobs in tobacco in North Carolina have simply evaporated over the past decade.

The Southern poor tend towards the fire and brimstone. Maybe secretly hoping that their social betters will wind up there? The Southern elite tend towards a more rosy view of the afterlife. Church attendance among the wealthy is more likely for show, or maybe to play a few holes with Pastor James next Wednesday.

Thoughts?

Chuck

The Naked Mage

I, too, live in the Human Scum Belt, and have become largely numb to the omnipresent churches (I think sullster was right on the money with his "more churches than people" remark). But when a church dares to activate a School Zone on a road I am driving on, it's difficult for me to avoid flying into a beserker fury.

Does anyone have any suggestions on how I could cope with this?

sighhswolf

Sullster,

I think that the actual religious influence on southern culture has a very simple and easily explained genesis.
Keep in mind that unlike northern industrialized cities with their dense population areas, the south was mainly a rural farming/ranching culture.
In most southern states your closest neighbor
could very well have been 8 to 10 miles away from you.
Many of the family owned farms and ranches were pretty much self sufficient, with the only need
being things like flour, salt, sugar, coffee...
primarily only staple comodities that were easy to keep and required no special storage requirements.
Essentially those farmers and families may get into town once or twice a month for shopping and trading.
So the culture was not inducive to socialization.
Enter the community church.......The church served as the town newspaper..deaths, births,
help needed from neighbors.
It served as the "gathering" area, the primary vehicle for social interaction between community members.
The church served to give a sense of community to those who would not normally have the time or the inclination to socialize with neighbors.
Farming and ranching is a very hard existence, there was not a great deal of available time for social contact, so the church not only supplied a
community meeting place, it also supplied welcome
relief from a very hard way of life.
If you didnt belong to the church, you didnt do much socialization, if you did not socialize with your neighbors, you were not trusted or accepted
by the community.
This cultural anomoly grew and finally evolved into what we see today in southern culture.
The culture was already established long before the war between the states, so in all honesty I really dont see the war as being part of this cultural anomoly. But based on the explanation above, it is very easy to understand why southern
people are for the most part distrustful of outsiders, be they northerners or simply people who did not "fit in".
Why it became so oppressive......well maybe oppressive is a bit strong, more like depressive
in my opinion.
There has always been a caste system in the south.
This was not a seperation between blacks and whites as some people would lead you to believe.
It was a seperation between aristocracy and common folks, the US equivalent of "royalty", something you do not see in Northern culture.
In the north there is a huge gap between the "haves" and the "have nots" but the culture doesnt lend itself to aristocracy to the same extent as in the south.
Course it's just my opinion.......
Wolf

Godless Dave

We could start a whole other thread on this, but I can tell from this you were educated in the South. Economics was one of the causes of the Civil War. Slavery was one of the other causes. At least that's what high school history books published for the North say.

I'm interested in how you describe the violence prevelant in southern culture. I'd always thought that but being a northerner I didn't want to fall for stereotypes. I think the economic and educational factors Chuck mentioned are important. Many fundies seem to be proud of their lack of formal, non-Biblical education. I think a religion that helps people feel superior is attractive to people with an inferiority complex.

Do you think the wealthier class maybe encouraged Christianity among the poor to keep them in their place? It worked in feudal Europe for centuries, so why not in the quasi-feudal antebellum South?

Bookman

Slow down, watch for kids, and get over yourself?

Bookman (only half kidding)

Pangea

I also grew up in NC and I agree. I am the rural sort and I grew up on a farm where we slaughtered our own meat, grew our own veggies, etc. Going to 'town' was a big deal. My high school was was a 60/40 split between the rednecks and the blacks. Me being neither caught shit from both sides. There was always racial tension at my school. There was always a racial fight/confrontation at EVERY pep rally and football game.

I think violence in the south is different than 'big city' violence. Everyone here does have guns. You don't really know unease until you pull up at a stop light beside a big burly redneck with chewing tobacco dripping down his lip and you look over and he smiles at you with his toothless grin and you notice the "the south will rise again" sticker on his dash and see the Mossberg shotgun AND the Remington 30.06 on his gun rack in the back window. Then you realize you are surrounded by these folks. These are your neighbors. Scary. So I went and got me a couple guns too. Learned to shoot and am waiting patiently for the next bible thumper to come over.

The Naked Mage

Not an option, Bookman. Kids are vindictive little fender-denting pinworm-sacks, and every place I need to be on any given day is important.

Hmm...maybe I should just weld a cow-catcher to the front of my car. Yeah, that's the ticket!

<does a little naked celebratory dance>

Nakey (just kidding) (probably)

[ April 16, 2002: Message edited by: The Naked Mage ]</p>

Bookman

Made me laugh.

Bookman