Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Bible Humper · 11-20-2002, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Belief in God's, or a person's future actions, is not subject to proof. For example, you may have "faith" that your wife will pick you up from work today. You have "faith" that she will do so because she said that she would and because she has always done so before. Your "faith" is not subject to proof. Likewise, no one can prove whether Jesus will return or not at this point.

No offense, but this sort of equivocating really annoys me for some reason.

You only have "faith" that your wife is going to pick you up from work if there is no credible evidence that she is going to. She has never done so in the past, and you haven't spoken to her today.

If someone in this situation were to have "faith" that his wife was going to just randomly show up despite all this you would wonder if he is all there upstairs, wouldn't you? Quite so.

John Page · 11-20-2002, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Atticus_Finch:
Belief in God's, or a person's future actions, is not subject to proof. For example, you may have "faith" that your wife will pick you up from work today. You have "faith" that she will do so because she said that she would and because she has always done so before. Your "faith" is not subject to proof. Likewise, no one can prove whether Jesus will return or not at this point.

... therefore my wife is Jesus?

John Page · 11-20-2002, 06:43 PM

Couldn't resist the response above. Anyway, on a more serious note, I suggest considering faith as an action or process, not to be confused with faith as a noun which refers to an underlying/specifc religion or belief system.

Considering faith (in whatever) in this generalized way I further venture that faith as an action or process is the "will to believe" and faith sustains belief over time. 'True' faith might be considered unshakeable, dogmatic, belief irrespective of the belief itself.

Finally in this post, as the underlying belief doesn't need to be in anything that is true or factual (mohammed <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> , god

, krishna

, logic

, whatever) it can be suggested that faith is a critical factor in cohesive societal behavior and development.

Summary: faith can have negative effects through dogmatic thinking and peer pressures it can have significant benefits enabling us to cooperate through common values and, as individuals, lead us through failure (from misled faith) to discover the facts about our existence.

Perhaps if Jesus had been the son of Galileo he would have been Newton.

Cheers, John

crocodile deathroll · 11-20-2002, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Atticus_Finch:
I am a Christian. I find that I define Christian "faith" differently than it has been discussed here. Let me elaborate.

...For example, you may have "faith" that your wife will pick you up from work today. You have "faith" that she will do so because she said that she would and because she has always done so before. Your "faith" is not subject to proof. Likewise, no one can prove whether Jesus will return or not at this point...

Regards,

Finch

If your wife was killed in an accident on the way to pick you up from work, then where will be your "faith" in your wife or Jesus be then?

Calvan · 11-20-2002, 10:47 PM

Atticus

Quote:

Originally posted by Atticus_Finch:
I do not believe those things about Him as a matter of "faith" but belief in them causes me to have "faith" in His promise to return.

Atticus, you have exactly touched upon one of the most important reasons why I would choose to be a non believer.
Calvan

Atticus_Finch · 11-21-2002, 04:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bible Humper:


No offense, but this sort of equivocating really annoys me for some reason.

You only have "faith" that your wife is going to pick you up from work if there is no credible evidence that she is going to. She has never done so in the past, and you haven't spoken to her today.

If someone in this situation were to have "faith" that his wife was going to just randomly show up despite all this you would wonder if he is all there upstairs, wouldn't you? Quite so.

With all due respect, I do not believe you carefully read my post. In the analogy, I have "faith" that my wife will pick me up because she said she would and she has been reliable in the past. Based on her track record of reliability I decide not to arrange for another means to get home because I have "faith" that she will pick me up.

I believe that there is credible evidence for God's existence and Jesus' divinity. I believe there is credible evidence that God/Jesus have been reliable in the past in fulfilling their promises. Therefore, I have "faith" that God/Jesus will fulfill what He has promised for the future. That is the nature of my "faith".

Regards,

Finch

Kharakov · 11-21-2002, 07:31 AM

Atticus-

Faith is the firm belief in something for which no proof exists. Proof is generally accepted to be empirical/ statistical data.

Quote:

Based on her track record of reliability

....

This is empirical/statistical data. Therefore your belief that your wife will pick you up is not faith, it is instead a valid belief based upon statistical data.

Your statement:

Quote:

I believe that there is credible evidence for God's existence and Jesus' divinity.

I don't doubt that you believe that there is credible evidence, however I doubt the evidence you are referring to is actually credible.

Keith Russell · 11-21-2002, 07:50 AM

Greetings:

I've tried to explain this before, but it remains unaddressed.

No matter how much 'faith' I have that my wife will pick me up from work, something (illness, car wreck, being asked to work late, etc.) could occur, and--[i]no matter how much 'faith' I have in her promise to pick me up--the 'faith' I have won't change the chances that she will, or won't, be able to keep her promise.

Keith.

notmadeforus · 11-21-2002, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Atticus_Finch:
I am a Christian. I find that I define Christian "faith" differently than it has been discussed here. Let me elaborate.

... etc ...

Finch

I suggest you read the latest addition to the Agora, "Irrational Faith".

[ November 21, 2002: Message edited by: notmadeforus ]

Keith Russell · 11-21-2002, 10:45 AM

Finch said:
"I believe that there is credible evidence for God's existence and Jesus' divinity. I believe there is credible evidence that God/Jesus have been reliable in the past in fulfilling their promises."

Finch, rather than telling us that there is reliable evidence (as every theist seems only too happy to do), why not actually explain where one can go to observe this evidence for one's self?

Am I really simply supposed to just 'take your word' that there is such evidence, and that it is credible?

(Not to mention the fact that if you have evidence, what on earth do you need faith for, anyway?)

Keith.

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11-20-2002, 06:43 PM	#43
John Page Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: US Posts: 5,495	Couldn't resist the response above. Anyway, on a more serious note, I suggest considering faith as an action or process, not to be confused with faith as a noun which refers to an underlying/specifc religion or belief system. Considering faith (in whatever) in this generalized way I further venture that faith as an action or process is the "will to believe" and faith sustains belief over time. 'True' faith might be considered unshakeable, dogmatic, belief irrespective of the belief itself. Finally in this post, as the underlying belief doesn't need to be in anything that is true or factual (mohammed <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> , god , krishna , logic , whatever) it can be suggested that faith is a critical factor in cohesive societal behavior and development. Summary: faith can have negative effects through dogmatic thinking and peer pressures it can have significant benefits enabling us to cooperate through common values and, as individuals, lead us through failure (from misled faith) to discover the facts about our existence. Perhaps if Jesus had been the son of Galileo he would have been Newton. Cheers, John

11-21-2002, 07:50 AM	#48
Keith Russell Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Overland Park, Kansas Posts: 1,336	Greetings: I've tried to explain this before, but it remains unaddressed. No matter how much 'faith' I have that my wife will pick me up from work, something (illness, car wreck, being asked to work late, etc.) could occur, and--[i]no matter how much 'faith' I have in her promise to pick me up--the 'faith' I have won't change the chances that she will, or won't, be able to keep her promise. Keith.

11-21-2002, 10:45 AM	#50
Keith Russell Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Overland Park, Kansas Posts: 1,336	Finch said: "I believe that there is credible evidence for God's existence and Jesus' divinity. I believe there is credible evidence that God/Jesus have been reliable in the past in fulfilling their promises." Finch, rather than telling us that there is reliable evidence (as every theist seems only too happy to do), why not actually explain where one can go to observe this evidence for one's self? Am I really simply supposed to just 'take your word' that there is such evidence, and that it is credible? (Not to mention the fact that if you have evidence, what on earth do you need faith for, anyway?) Keith.

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