Freethought & Rationalism Archive

NOGO · 09-24-2002, 08:20 AM

So Ed, is revenge moral?
Is revenge on innocent people 400 years after, moral?

Ed, I need an answer. Are you afraid to face the truth.

Starboy · 09-25-2002, 04:49 PM

Ed is so busted, but in typical Christian fashion, instead of admitting fallibility and displaying some dignity even in defeat he slinks away silently only to strike the hapless when least expected and spread his mental infection.

Starboy

Ed · 09-25-2002, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Starboy:
<strong>Ed, how can you expect anyone to give any credibility to your criticisms of their morality when you are unable to clearly state your own. You seem to think that being able to find fault in others morality somehow makes your morals superior. This does appear to be the standard Christian approach. Such behavior may be only borderline immoral but it is definitely disingenuous. Another common Christian trait.

Starboy</strong>

I told you exactly what my morals were above. The ten commandments supplemented by Christ's moral teachings. I am just doing what all scientists do, if the foundational presuppositions are flawed, ie irrational, then the whole structure is likely to be flawed also. How is that disingenuous and immoral?

Jack the Bodiless · 09-26-2002, 06:21 AM

Quote:

I told you exactly what my morals were above. The ten commandments supplemented by Christ's moral teachings. I am just doing what all scientists do, if the foundational presuppositions are flawed, ie irrational, then the whole structure is likely to be flawed also.

And we observe that the whole structure of Christian morality IS flawed. Therefore it is reasonable to infer that this is a result of the flawed foundational presupposition.

Furthermore, we already know that the foundational presupposition IS unsound (Biblical contradictions, the falsehood of Genesis etc). Therefore we can already see that things aren't looking good for Christian morality.

Quote:

How is that disingenuous and immoral?

You are being disingenuous when you claimed that your morals are the Ten Commandments supplemented by Christ's moral teachings. If this were so, then you would not use rape as an example of immoral behavior, because Christianity does not teach this.

And you are being disingenuous when you said "I am just doing what all scientists do". You should abandon the exploded theory. You should be prepared to give fair consideration to an alternative (metaphysical naturalism) that has the advantage of being fully compatible with the evidence.

Keith Russell · 09-26-2002, 08:08 AM

Greetings:

This is the same circular argument I had with a different theist, in a different thread, a few weeks ago.

1. Reason is bestowed by God, and is an attribute of God.

2. Anything attempt at reasoning which rejects God is irrational.

This results in a totally different view of 'reason' than what most people use the word 'reason' to mean.

Keith.

Starboy · 09-26-2002, 08:34 AM

Ed, Keith summed it up rather nicely. You are not honest enough with us or yourself to admit that for you the only way to rationality is through god, an example of deception. I have asked you more than once that if an atheist held the same morals as a Christian but did not believe in god would their morals be irrational. You repeatedly ignored the question, an example of how disingenuous you are. To add to this you are evasive and devious, again immoral behavior. Ed, you do not practice what you preach, an example of hypocrisy.

But Ed, I am not surprised. This is par for the course for Christians. It is possible because from an early age Christians are trained in double think, the ability to hold contradictory ideas in one�s head and believe that they are all correct.

Starboy

NOGO · 09-26-2002, 07:08 PM

Ed,

I am waiting for an answer for my last two posts.
Are you avoiding me, Ed?

Ed · 09-28-2002, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by NOGO:
<strong>

Very well you at last admit it. The rest is just speculation and here is why.

Ex17:8-16
...
13 So Joshua overwhelmed Amalek and his people with the edge of the sword.
14 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Write this in a book as a memorial and recite it to Joshua, that I will utterly blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven."
15 Moses built an altar and named it (25) The LORD is My Banner;
16 and he said, "The LORD has sworn; the LORD will have war against Amalek from generation to generation."

You see Yahweh swore to avenge the attack. This has nothing to do with other reasons which you speculated about. Now look at Deut 25 below.

Deut 25
17 "Remember what Amalek did to you along the way when you came out from Egypt,
18 how he met you along the way and attacked among you all the stragglers at your rear when you were faint and weary; and he did not fear God.
19 "Therefore it shall come about when the LORD your God has given you rest from all your surrounding enemies, in the land which the LORD your God gives you as an inheritance to possess, you shall blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven; you must not forget.

A clear statement to destroy these people right after the attack took place. The only reason they waited is that they did not have the means back then. Funny that Yahweh cannot do his own butchering. This is clearly revenge.

So Ed, is revenge moral?
Is revenge on innocent people 400 years after, moral?</strong>

Tne amalakites slaughtered the weak and helpless that were straggling and also these were the designated representatives of the king of the universe. And all their descendants gloried in that victory for 400 years, it would be like if the Germans celebrated the slaughter of the jews every year and did not regret what their ancestors did. Since God is the judge of the universe as I stated, it is not revenge. Would you consider a judge sentencing the murderer of your wife taking revenge on him? Of course not, this is not an act of revenge it is an act of justice.

Starboy · 09-28-2002, 04:38 PM

Dang! Christian double speak! Justice == Revenge, Murder == Justice, All loving == No remorse, rational == savage, reality = supernatural. Be afraid, be very afraid, this is a Christian world we live in!

Starboy

NOGO · 09-28-2002, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Ed
Tne amalakites slaughtered the weak and helpless that were straggling and also these were the designated representatives of the king of the universe. And all their descendants gloried in that victory for 400 years, it would be like if the Germans celebrated the slaughter of the jews every year and did not regret what their ancestors did. Since God is the judge of the universe as I stated, it is not revenge. Would you consider a judge sentencing the murderer of your wife taking revenge on him? Of course not, this is not an act of revenge it is an act of justice.

"And all their descendants gloried in that victory for 400 years"

Where did you get this Ed?
Which verse?

This is another invention of yours. You are then saying that this is the real reason for the massacre. ie these people glorified their victory for 400 years.

But if that was the real reason why then does the Bible say that the reason is the attack itself.

In fact as I keep point out to you Yahweh promised their destruction immediately after the attack which would nullify your new found reason.

Also it should be obvious from the description of the attack that this was not a major battle. The Israelites were just passing through. This is nothing to remember for 400 years.

This is another attempt at whitewashing the issue.

Ed:
"Would you consider a judge sentencing the murderer of your wife taking revenge on him?"

You are asking the wrong question, Ed.

I will modify it for you so as to reflect the situation that we are discussing.

"Would you consider a judge sentencing the children of the murderer of your wife taking revenge on them?"

The answer is YES

What is your answer, Ed?

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09-24-2002, 08:20 AM	#151
NOGO Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Canada Posts: 1,562	So Ed, is revenge moral? Is revenge on innocent people 400 years after, moral? Ed, I need an answer. Are you afraid to face the truth.

09-25-2002, 04:49 PM	#152
Starboy Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tallahassee, FL Reality Adventurer Posts: 5,276	Ed is so busted, but in typical Christian fashion, instead of admitting fallibility and displaying some dignity even in defeat he slinks away silently only to strike the hapless when least expected and spread his mental infection. Starboy

09-26-2002, 08:08 AM	#155
Keith Russell Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Overland Park, Kansas Posts: 1,336	Greetings: This is the same circular argument I had with a different theist, in a different thread, a few weeks ago. 1. Reason is bestowed by God, and is an attribute of God. 2. Anything attempt at reasoning which rejects God is irrational. This results in a totally different view of 'reason' than what most people use the word 'reason' to mean. Keith.

09-26-2002, 08:34 AM	#156
Starboy Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tallahassee, FL Reality Adventurer Posts: 5,276	Ed, Keith summed it up rather nicely. You are not honest enough with us or yourself to admit that for you the only way to rationality is through god, an example of deception. I have asked you more than once that if an atheist held the same morals as a Christian but did not believe in god would their morals be irrational. You repeatedly ignored the question, an example of how disingenuous you are. To add to this you are evasive and devious, again immoral behavior. Ed, you do not practice what you preach, an example of hypocrisy. But Ed, I am not surprised. This is par for the course for Christians. It is possible because from an early age Christians are trained in double think, the ability to hold contradictory ideas in one�s head and believe that they are all correct. Starboy

09-26-2002, 07:08 PM	#157
NOGO Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Canada Posts: 1,562	Ed, I am waiting for an answer for my last two posts. Are you avoiding me, Ed?

09-28-2002, 04:38 PM	#159
Starboy Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tallahassee, FL Reality Adventurer Posts: 5,276	Dang! Christian double speak! Justice == Revenge, Murder == Justice, All loving == No remorse, rational == savage, reality = supernatural. Be afraid, be very afraid, this is a Christian world we live in! Starboy

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