Foxhole Atheist

“I've almost gotten used to that, being regularly ignored by many on this site, but not entirely. Perhaps I am not interesting or intelligent enough to post here.”

Icarus:

I, for one, enjoy your posts; as I’m sure many others here do so as well. You say a lot in as few words as necessary. Thank you.

Pomp

I'd like to see an answer to this one too, luvluv. I'm a bit confused by your apparent desire to conflate "hope" and "belief." Personally, I use hope to mean something like "desire for a particular outcome and the belief that said outcome is possible." You seem to want to replace "is possible" with "will occur." If I believe something will I occur, I don't hope for it, I simply believe it. I don't, for exanple, hope the sun rises tomorrow, I just believe that it will.

Edited to change my point a bit.

[ July 17, 2002: Message edited by: Pompous Bastard ]</p>

Odemus

To the contrary, you are the most dangerous kind of athiest.On one hand, you display an accurate understanding of fundamental Christian tenets derived from personal experience, on the other, you show little if any hostility towards the faith.

Yes I am very interested in hearing the details.

With regard to your search for a personal relationship with God, were you unable to ever establish one, or what was the catalyst which severed what it was you did have?

As far as your inability to reconcile these concepts that you mention, I'm going to take a guess that you find an incompatability between the sovereignty of God and the accountability of man.I look forward to your response.

On a side note, I find your handle alarming.Why did you choose that name?

[ July 17, 2002: Message edited by: Odemus ]</p>

Koyaanisqatsi

I do.

Well, since this is all about you and your pastor, I guess I'm wrong to have spoken about the overall bad of christianity outweighing any negligable good.



Hate the sin, not the sinner.

Bully for you. I say you are ultimately lying to yourself.

Your turn.

Then perhaps you'd also like a lobotomy, since that would make you happy too?

Oh really....? Not that this has anything to do with anything, but why don't you try having sex with another woman in front of her and see just how conditional that "love" becomes, yes?

And so far has nothing to do with whether or not you pretend that a God exists...

How? Provide just one example, if you would.

I didn't say there is ultimately no order and purpose to life, I said that a christian who thinks that there is an order and purpose to their lives based upon a lie ultimately has no order or purpose to their lives; how could they if it's all ultimately a lie?

THE LIE: My purpose in life is to serve the Great Pumpkin.

THE TRUTH: No such creature exists.

THE ULTIMATE TRUTH: Shit...what a total waste.

Again, as before, if you can't recognize the qualitative difference between living your whole life according to a lie (a detrimental lie, no less that has been demonstrated to be so throughout its entire bloody history), then perhaps you really should consider the lobotomy?

I'm actually not joking. What is the difference, other than a decrease in motor skills?

As it is every day of your existence, yet, as you said, you have a loving wife and an adoring child. All of which you subjectively experience.

In fact, if you factor in free will (which never is, of course, since its a false doctrine used only as an apologist's prop, IMO) then every single thing you've ever experienced about life including your beliefs is necessarily derived by your own personal subjective experience.

Just one? For me, father, son, grandson, lover, husband, friend, artist, writer, filmmaker, confidante, teacher, student, observer.

Need more?

You won't think it's pretty....

To both of us, hopefully, but doubtfully, considering what you've so far written.

Congratulations.

Yes, we both think you're delusional. Only you, unfortunately, "fancy" that.

Yes...of course it is...and you're passing yours with flying colors! Now look at the shiny keys and pay no attention to the men with the jacket...

My Aunt and her family and close friends do and it has caused over fifteen years of unimaginable hell on earth for all concerned.

Thanks, by the way, for demonstrating the benefits of your "way of life" by not addressing any of that, by the way. It was very comforting for me to see how bored you were with another person's plight.

Very christian of you.

No, I provide examples from my own life and subjective experience.

No, no, you're assinine comments and complete lack of regard for everything I mentioned about what my Aunt and her family and friends (and by extension our entire family as well) has gone through for over fifteen years now serves perfectly to prove what worshipping an imaginary creature can provide.

No bubble was there for you to burst, oh mighty Odemus.

Gee, I don't know. Perhaps in the delusion that you have "knowledge" that your friend is "with the Lord" now might be a good start?

Which Lord would this be, by the way, because there are hundreds of them?

No.

Not in the slightest. In fact you are defining one as we type.

Talk to my Aunt.

Doh! Another stereotype defined: the self-important theist who thinks he's an exception to his own conditioning simply because he isn't capable of realizing how he and others are being conditioned!

Deny, deny, deny....

Yes?

Which it is not as you well know, it is defined as subjective experience...

Then you short of loss of motor skills, you really do have no reason not to get a lobotomy.

Actually, strike that, since that would not be a lie.

So far you're batting 0 for 0.

Un hunh.

Or capable of comprehending and discussing more esoteric concepts, apparently, but thanks for playing along.

You win anything off the bottom self.

Mine is forever open; yours was closed two thousand years ago.

RogerLeeCooke

I think Odemus DOES misunderstand free will. He has continuously insisted an atheist can't have any reason for doing anything. In other words, life is meaningless if you really have some freedom to make a choice. Only when you absolutely DERIVE all your actions from luminous axioms does life have a meaning, according to Odemus. Freedom is slavery!

Odemus

Yes, you are either a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness.I don't believe in free will.

I'll get back to Koy ASAP.

philechat

Well, life does not have meaning. So get used to it and stop thinking that the universe really have any plans for its children. Unless, of course, you are too afraid (or infantile) to admit this lucid truth.

Odemus

I am going to respond to you Koy, but you have one last chance here to keep the dialogue between us open.I understand that you have a lot of personal pain, and much anger towards Christianity but that in no way entitles you to take the things I say out of context.When you originally made this statement:

It was stated in a general context of what Christians believe as a result of tragedy.It was not stated in reference to your family.When I responded to it:

it was specific to my life, and had no bearing on your family.If you continue to distort my position, I will no longer respond to you, plain and simple, you decide whether or not it's worth sticking to the truth.

You:I do.

...and you accuse me of avoiding the issue.

This is how you consistently operate. You issue blanket judgements against all Christians, even while addressing them personally.

That's odd because I believe every person is accountable for their own actions, regardless of what they believe.I would have thought that to be a logical conclusion of an athiest.

Maybe I was wrong but I thought this forum was a place for the exchange of thoughts and ideas, not finger pointing.After all, I don't blame you for the godless acts of atrocity commited in the name of communism.

Hate sin and not the sinner indeed.

We can sit here and make declarative statements about what my faith means to me all day but the fact is we both agree that meaning is derived from personal experience (in the absence of God) which means I reserve the right to determine how meaningful my life is.Of course I believe in a God, and my purpose is defined by Him, but from a perspective of disbelief in God (that is, your perspective), that is irrelevant.You are simply unable to make a quantitative assessment of the value of the meaning of my life.

What's the going rate for one of those?

Perhaps a lobotomy would make me happy but that is beside the point.I am put on this planet to serve God, and that is where my greatest joy comes from.To seek happiness just for the sake of happiness will always be a lesser degree (and ultimately unfulfilling) happiness.


Me:I've got a wife who loves me unconditionally,


One thing I like about your approach is that it does force me to be as precise as I can possibly be or else you will ignore the obvious meaning of my statement.

My wife loves who I am in Christ unconditionally.That means she accepts me for my human weaknesses and frailties as I do hers.

Me: and all of this has been enhanced and brought to a greater sense of fulfillment in the light of my understanding of Scriptural truths.

My life is my testimony to this fact.It is through my pursuit of holiness that I learn to submit to the will of God, to be accountable for my actions to him, to be responsible as a provider and a steward to my family.My journey has been one of increasing fulfillment since my conversion.


Let's assume there is no God.

I am happy.I find meaning and purpose in my life.

Prove that either:

a)I don't really have happiness.

or

b)My happiness is less than yours.

I don't believe in free will.

Apart from filmmaker, I am all of those things as well.If I so chose, I could be a filmmaker, but it doesn't interest me.


You: there is only one meaning a person's life can have as a cult member

So because I am a Christian I can't be a father, son, grandson, lover, husband, friend, artist, writer, filmmaker, confidante, teacher, student or observer? Why not?

I addressed this at the beginning of this post but I would like to add that I intentionally avoided commenting on your aunt and personal life out of respect for the fact that it is such a great source of anguish for you.I am aware at this point that it is impossible for me to reveal God to you as as a source of comfort.I felt, and still do that it is best for me to leave your family issues alone until the point you are ready to talk about them without pointing fingers.I do pray for healing in your family though.

Assuming I am deluded, how do you explain the fact that my faith aided my healing process and contrary to what you initially stated I have moved on with my life?

You:Which Lord would this be, by the way, because there are hundreds of them?

There is only one.You will find Him in the old and new testaments of what is commonly known as The Holy Bible.

If you concede that nobody knows what happens after death you must concede that regardless of what you believe happens after death, it requires faith.Therefore, your disbelief in Christ requires faith.

How have I been conditioned?

You'll have to do better than another in your series of unsubstantiated declarative statements about me and my life.Please demonstrate how the meaning of your life is open and mine is closed.

[ July 17, 2002: Message edited by: Odemus ]</p>

Keith Russell

Greetings:

Reason is non-contradictory identification. Being rational means that one bases one's beliefs only upon a reasoned consideration of the available evidence.

Although many religious views proceed logically from their premises, none of them offer an initial premise that is based only on a reasoned consideration of the available evidence.

Religion's premises are not rational.

Atheism offers one the opportunity to be rational, consistent, and to avoid any contradiction between reality, and one's metaphysical views.

Keith.

Odemus

Ignore them.They do go away.

If they bother you that badly try this approach:

1)Open the door
2)"No thanks, not interested."
3)Close the door.

This entire process takes somewhere in the neighborhood of 5 seconds depending on how many locks you have on the door.

These people are only going to try 'correcting your privately held beliefs' for as long as you engage them.Try not engaging them.

I have been approached countless times by JW's and Mormons and I have never once had a problem getting rid of them if I am otherwise engaged or am simply not in the mood to talk.

You act like it's the Spanish inquisition.Life is filled with inconveniences and only the tiniest fraction of a percent are people knocking on your door who you would rather not.

[ July 17, 2002: Message edited by: Odemus ]</p>