Freethought & Rationalism Archive

tronvillain · 01-29-2002, 10:02 AM

jess:

Quote:

How can anyone justify bringing a child into this horrible nasty world where they will experience pain and suffering beyond measure? Where any amount of pleasure and joy they feel will be squashed and destroyed and never equal the amount of drudgery and depression they must contend with? Especially when there is no promise of heaven for them later?

Well, I would not attempt to justify that, but fortunately I do not hold that view of the world. I consider life worth living, and it seems quite likely that any children I have will think the same. Apparently you do not, and that seems to me a perfectly good reason to not have children - so don't.

jess · 01-29-2002, 10:06 AM

thanks tron, for telling me what (not) to do instead of giving me a answer.

Jeebus--- what would you do if your kids ever look you in the eye and say that they wish you had never had them? What would you tell them then?

(edited to delete a confusing N)

[ January 29, 2002: Message edited by: jess ]</p>

99Percent · 01-29-2002, 10:16 AM

jess: I am not some desperate depressed person needing a anti-suicide talk

Yes you are.

jess · 01-29-2002, 10:25 AM

Thank you for looking into your crystal ball and announcing that. I feel ever so much better now.

I think I will run off and have a bunch of kids now, just to 'experience life!'

originally a PM:
I would really appreciate if you could back up your claim (preferrably privately) and (originally an 'or') delete the post where you say I am suicidal.

Please.

There is no reason to post that on the boards.

If I were suicidal, and I am not, that kinda thing could push me over the edge. If I were not, and I am not, it would make me seeth with anger and see red.

No one, not even my husband, gets to tell me what I think or feel without feeling my wrath.

jess · 01-29-2002, 10:26 AM

um, the preferrably privately stuff is obviously moot. Back up your libelous statement in public, please.

tronvillain · 01-29-2002, 10:44 AM

I already said that I would not attempt to justify it - if I felt that way about the world I wouldn't have children. Theoretically someone could justify such a decision to themselves if the benefit they expected to derive from having a child exceeded the penalties they expected to derive from having a child. While ultimately all reasons are selfish, such a person would probably be judged extremely selfish by most people's standards.

jess · 01-29-2002, 10:50 AM

tron:

hmmmm...

That is quite a mouthful.

And you have answered my question by basically saying that the best reason to have kids would be the most selfish.

So, the new human's ideas or wants are minimal to the gains the parent makes.

But if your children did view the world the way I stated, would you still feel justified? The answer to the hypothetical 'I wish you hadn't had me' would be a 'well, I got a kick out of it'?

(I realize most people do not even reason out having kids--- I am looking for people who will reason it out to answer)

[ January 29, 2002: Message edited by: jess ]</p>

99Percent · 01-29-2002, 12:58 PM

Jess: I publicly apologize to you for the libelous statement [that you are suicidal]... Now its your turn to publicly apologize for all the uncalled sarcasm in your posts.

Back on topic, how can you be so sure your children will be so angry at you for supposedly bringing them into the world? Isn't it a bit too arrogant on your part to predict the future and assume that they will be unhappy apriori? They could just as well have an entirely positive experience of life. I certainly have, and even though my parents weren't perfect in my upbringing (if fact damn imperfect!) I am grateful I am alive.

99Percent · 01-29-2002, 01:05 PM

Jess: You want a clear cut cold answer as to why to have children? Because we feel good about life and feel that our children will too. If you don't feel good about your own life and think your children will feel unfortunate too, well then don't have children. Nobody is forcing you.

jess · 01-29-2002, 01:25 PM

Thank you, although I feel that you still believe it.

I do not see a reason to appologize for sarcasm at all. Show me why you have requested one, and perhaps I will see your point and concede.

I do not have access to a crystal ball--- I am merely looking at it from that aspect. What if a child did turn to me and say that? I thought a rational person ought to examine all the potential problems before diving into an irreversable decision. I have had too many contemporaries die or fall seriously ill or commit suicide while growing up to not take all those factors into consideration. I know too many people who have chosen not to have kids because 'life just isn't worth it' to not wonder and think and ask about it.

Although, I was merely asking a question, phrased in a certain light because I was not getting any answers warm to my request.

We are not instinctual creatures--- not really, not anymore. We really should rationalize our actions. Having kids because 'it's an experience!' just reeks, to me. No matter how I view the world. (Well, not true. If there were no chance of a person having his/her heart ripped out and destroyed, then maybe I would think it was possible.)

I would think it would be better to be 'too arrogant' now and wonder 'what if' rather than be 'too arrogant' now and assume they will be happy.

I am not asking 'hey, should I have kids?'--- although you and tron have both told me not to (gee, thanks). I am merely asking if there is a better reason than 'hey, it's just a cool thing to do!'

Apparently not.

I guess I just think too much. If I didn't, then 'it feels good--- don't worry, be happy--- they will be too!' would have been enough.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

01-29-2002, 10:06 AM	#22
jess Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: rationalpagans.com Posts: 7,400	thanks tron, for telling me what (not) to do instead of giving me a answer. Jeebus--- what would you do if your kids ever look you in the eye and say that they wish you had never had them? What would you tell them then? (edited to delete a confusing N) [ January 29, 2002: Message edited by: jess ]</p>

01-29-2002, 10:16 AM	#23
99Percent Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: my mind Posts: 5,996	jess: I am not some desperate depressed person needing a anti-suicide talk Yes you are.

01-29-2002, 10:25 AM	#24
jess Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: rationalpagans.com Posts: 7,400	Thank you for looking into your crystal ball and announcing that. I feel ever so much better now. I think I will run off and have a bunch of kids now, just to 'experience life!' originally a PM: I would really appreciate if you could back up your claim (preferrably privately) and (originally an 'or') delete the post where you say I am suicidal. Please. There is no reason to post that on the boards. If I were suicidal, and I am not, that kinda thing could push me over the edge. If I were not, and I am not, it would make me seeth with anger and see red. No one, not even my husband, gets to tell me what I think or feel without feeling my wrath.

01-29-2002, 10:26 AM	#25
jess Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: rationalpagans.com Posts: 7,400	um, the preferrably privately stuff is obviously moot. Back up your libelous statement in public, please.

01-29-2002, 10:44 AM	#26
tronvillain Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 5,658	I already said that I would not attempt to justify it - if I felt that way about the world I wouldn't have children. Theoretically someone could justify such a decision to themselves if the benefit they expected to derive from having a child exceeded the penalties they expected to derive from having a child. While ultimately all reasons are selfish, such a person would probably be judged extremely selfish by most people's standards.

01-29-2002, 10:50 AM	#27
jess Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: rationalpagans.com Posts: 7,400	tron: hmmmm... That is quite a mouthful. And you have answered my question by basically saying that the best reason to have kids would be the most selfish. So, the new human's ideas or wants are minimal to the gains the parent makes. But if your children did view the world the way I stated, would you still feel justified? The answer to the hypothetical 'I wish you hadn't had me' would be a 'well, I got a kick out of it'? (I realize most people do not even reason out having kids--- I am looking for people who will reason it out to answer) [ January 29, 2002: Message edited by: jess ]</p>

01-29-2002, 12:58 PM	#28
99Percent Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: my mind Posts: 5,996	Jess: I publicly apologize to you for the libelous statement [that you are suicidal]... Now its your turn to publicly apologize for all the uncalled sarcasm in your posts. Back on topic, how can you be so sure your children will be so angry at you for supposedly bringing them into the world? Isn't it a bit too arrogant on your part to predict the future and assume that they will be unhappy apriori? They could just as well have an entirely positive experience of life. I certainly have, and even though my parents weren't perfect in my upbringing (if fact damn imperfect!) I am grateful I am alive.

01-29-2002, 01:05 PM	#29
99Percent Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: my mind Posts: 5,996	Jess: You want a clear cut cold answer as to why to have children? Because we feel good about life and feel that our children will too. If you don't feel good about your own life and think your children will feel unfortunate too, well then don't have children. Nobody is forcing you.

01-29-2002, 01:25 PM	#30
jess Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: rationalpagans.com Posts: 7,400	Thank you, although I feel that you still believe it. I do not see a reason to appologize for sarcasm at all. Show me why you have requested one, and perhaps I will see your point and concede. I do not have access to a crystal ball--- I am merely looking at it from that aspect. What if a child did turn to me and say that? I thought a rational person ought to examine all the potential problems before diving into an irreversable decision. I have had too many contemporaries die or fall seriously ill or commit suicide while growing up to not take all those factors into consideration. I know too many people who have chosen not to have kids because 'life just isn't worth it' to not wonder and think and ask about it. Although, I was merely asking a question, phrased in a certain light because I was not getting any answers warm to my request. We are not instinctual creatures--- not really, not anymore. We really should rationalize our actions. Having kids because 'it's an experience!' just reeks, to me. No matter how I view the world. (Well, not true. If there were no chance of a person having his/her heart ripped out and destroyed, then maybe I would think it was possible.) I would think it would be better to be 'too arrogant' now and wonder 'what if' rather than be 'too arrogant' now and assume they will be happy. I am not asking 'hey, should I have kids?'--- although you and tron have both told me not to (gee, thanks). I am merely asking if there is a better reason than 'hey, it's just a cool thing to do!' Apparently not. I guess I just think too much. If I didn't, then 'it feels good--- don't worry, be happy--- they will be too!' would have been enough.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.