bonduca

An unplanned pregnancy, you mean? (imagines accidentally popping out a child while out walking the dog, and saying, "I meant to do that.") Poor planning is not inherently unselfish, or else I should be elected Saint of Lost Car Keys.

If one decides to carry the unplanned pregnancy to term, how are the reasons substantially different, unless one puts said child up for adoption?

Of course, one could also argue that bringing a defenseless infant into existence, only to abandon it to strangers (who may pass an adoptive parent screening only to have weird pedophile relatives, or divorce and remarry brutal monsters, eh?)is also a selfish act, since it is done to satisfy one's own sense of altruism and charity, and the future feelings of the child-to-be are not taken into account.

[ January 28, 2002: Message edited by: bonduca ]</p>

dangin

To be poetic, and rip off the commentator I heard on NPR last week.

Every year we age the canopy of generations above us thins, if we are lucky a new one grows at our feet.

Asha'man

Hi jess,

Personally, I have never been able to find an unselfish reasons for children. I also have many selfish reasons not to have children, the amount of time, effort, and money required to properly raise them being a prime concern.

I think you just have to feel the biological need for children. Rationalizing it won't work.

As for protecting the species from backsliding, it may be too late. I like to joke that the specied is doomed within the next 50 to 100 years.

abe smith

Oh, Honeh... if having children/ perpetuating the species depended on REASON! humankind wd've been extinct long ago! To begin w/. even those who [are nutty enough to set about to} try to have children deliberately, often encounter great difficulty or failure in their efforts. IF there were any sech a thang as "innate instinct" {that's a tautology, I suppose.}, surely fucking, in whatever form it takes, must be one of those? Some things e.g. [human coupling & reproduction} are TOO NECESSARY/IMPORTANT to be left to THINKING about it! "Birds do it/ Bees do it/ even educated fleas do it...."

jess

ok, I hadn't meant this to get into a debate about what 'selfish' meant--- I had foolishly assumed that the common definition of the word would be used.

How about a not immediatly selfish reason?

There is no need for anyone of us to have kids--- the human species will not die out due to lack of population any time soon--- quite the reverse may happen, actually...

And I can not think of a single non selfish reason--- non direct impact on me reason.

Except the desire to increase the amount of Morlocks in the world, with all those Eloi running about just begging for it. (I must assume the 'duty of all freethinkers' post was echoing that idea...)

Yes, in the long run, that is 'selfish', but in the short run, it is not.

However, that is the best I can do.

Perhaps, I should ask this question instead---

How can anyone justify bringing a child into this horrible nasty world where they will experience pain and suffering beyond measure? Where any amount of pleasure and joy they feel will be squashed and destroyed and never equal the amount of drudgery and depression they must contend with? Especially when there is no promise of heaven for them later?

Considering I have recently (the past few years) come to the non depressed realization that I would have been 'perfectly happy' never being born, I would really like to know why, other than purely selfish irrational reasons, someone would want to subject another person to the pain and torment this world provides.

Thanks.

Jesus Tap-Dancin' Christ

Why would anyone want to come into this wold?

For all the pain I've been through (and it's a LOT), the suffering, the watching of others suffer, and the years of knowing that there would be no heaven for me, I still say that the happiness that I enjoyed however briefly it lasted, was worth it all the while.

20 minutes of pure happiness makes it worthwhile to me.

jess

y'see, I feel that the amount and the quality of happiness this world has to offer is way to small to warrant living in it.


If all we do is end up dead, why bother bringing new life into it?

For some reason, to me, the cycle of pain despair ageing and death is just not a good thing to condemn someone else into. I see no reason to perpetuate it.

All the happiness and joy I have had, none of it is worth the loss of a peaceful non existence.

[ January 29, 2002: Message edited by: jess ]</p>

99Percent

jess: y'see, I feel that the amount and the quality of happiness this world has to offer is way to small to warrant living in it.

Don't think happiness is relative? Your life could be paradise compared to someone else's life.

If all we do is end up dead, why bother bringing new life into it?

For the sake of living! Why do you bother showering if you are going to end up dirty again? So you can be clean for a while. Why eat if you are going to be hungry again, so you can savor food and feel satisfied for a while. Why read a book if you know how it is going to end? So you can enjoy the pleasure of reading a book. Don't be a nihilist.

For some reason, to me, the cycle of pain despair ageing and death is just not a good thing to condemn someone else into. I see no reason to perpetuate it.

If you think like that the whole universe might as well self destruct.

All the happiness and joy I have had, none of it is worth the loss of a peaceful non existence.

Are you really an atheist? Non existence is neither peaceful nor a loss. Its just non-existence. At least you exist and can have the experience of this existence. That rock over there can't. You rather "be" a rock? Of course not.

Having children is an experience of life, like having sex, eating sleeping, etc. Definitely worth it!

Jesus Tap-Dancin' Christ

I suupose that would make us of differing opinions then, wouldn't it?
I'm not sure that I would bring another into this world, but I know that no matter how much I hurt, it was worth it to me.

jess

JC: cool. I read that as you accept it, but would not force it on someone else without thought.

What I am doing--- the thinking part.

99:
Don't think happiness is relative? Your life could be paradise compared to someone else's life.

Never said I didn't know it was subjective. I know how great my life has been. That doesn't change anything.

I am sick of the 'sorry I had no shoes until I saw a man who had no feet' shit. Why the hell can't we both have shoes? Why must I compare myself with what is worse and not what is better? Compared to some, my life is a living hell. Why can't I demand a better life for all? (other than the simple fact that it won't happen?)

For the sake of living! Why do you bother showering if you are going to end up dirty again? So you can be clean for a while. Why eat if you are going to be hungry again, so you can savor food and feel satisfied for a while. Why read a book if you know how it is going to end? So you can enjoy the pleasure of reading a book. Don't be a nihilist.

Don't condescend. You named chores we must do in order to stay healthy and function in this world. One could argue inertia here. Why should I subject another to these chores 'for the sake of living'? Please, a less childish reason would be great.

If you think like that the whole universe might as well self destruct.

Isn't it on its way?

jess: All the happiness and joy I have had, none of it is worth the loss of a peaceful non existence.

Are you really an atheist?

No, you can read my profile. I never said I was. However, I don't see how your reasoning follows.

Non existence is neither peaceful nor a loss.
Its just non-existence.

Wow. Thanks for clearing that up./sarcasm
BINGO. It is non existance. How wonderful.

At least you exist and can have the experience of this existence.

great! I can sit here and suffer for the sake of it! Whoopee! To what end? For what reason? Why should I care to live to 90 if there is no difference than if I had died at 9?

That rock over there can't. You rather "be" a rock? Of course not.

No, I don't want to end up as sand. I would rather completely have not existed at all. How can you tell me what I want? I am not some desperate depressed person needing a anti-suicide talk--- I am merely trying to justify bringing a person into this world. The arguement of 'to live!' is way too flakey.

Having children is an experience of life, like having sex, eating sleeping, etc.

So what, infertile people can't have sex, eat sleep? I do not get your point here. Cutting off my arm would also be an experience of life--- but I somehow doubt you are going to tell me to try that.

Definitely worth it!

WHY? Give me a reason. Give me a reason that makes it worth it to bring a child who--- subjectively--- may hate this world more than I do into this world. Or worse, who may make others already here do the same.

That simple 'aw, to see him giggle is the BEST FEELING EVER' will not cut it. I came here for real, cold, hard answers.