girlwriter

Brighid,
I've since finished reading the thread, including your original post, and you were indeed pretty supportive. I can also see the context in which you offered your comments, and they do seem less out of place. I appreciate your support, but I still feel that your comments were slightly missplaced.

I don't really feel that the forum matters that much. I think it's very clear that the spirit of the OP was that ID feels frustrated by the reactions that she gets from people who feel she should have children, or that she may regret not having children. As a childfree person, I have experienced the same thing. What I tried to say in my last post is that it is insulting (whether intended or not,) when one makes the assumption that we have not considered what we might be missing.
You did, and that's fair enough. But a comment that is insensitive or offensive, whether it was meant that way or not, is still rude. It has been mentioned several times in this thread that childfree people are tired of hearing that it's different with your own children, saying it again is rubbing salt in the wound. I see that you're asserting that in your experience it is true, and that is certainly a valid assertion. My point is that by the time one is seriously considering sterilization, one has usually heard this (and thought about it quite a bit) many times before.

Please remember also that as a parent, you can't possibly understand the rewards of non-parenthood. It goes both ways. You might be even happier now if you had never had a child. We can't answer to what might be. What we can do is make a responsible choice as to whether or not to create another human being based on what we know to be true in the present. If a twenty-year-old wants to make a choice not to be a parent, there is nothing wrong with that. She won't be able to make that choice permanent without hearing the arguments against it many times over. As long as it is clear that no one is asking for an opinion from parents on the issue, let her hear it from her family, friends and doctor, and please let her (us) have this one place where she (we) can enjoy some support for her (our) position.

girlwriter

ID,

Yes, I finished the story and it turned out really well. I submitted it into a contest (as non-fiction, though it could really be either,) and am still waiting to hear whether or not I am a finalist. If I win, I get published and take home $1000. But right now I would be totally thrilled even to make the final cut. I'll send it to you.

Yeah, Godless, you're right. I'm being very opinionated today. I just get irked that I can't seem to go anywhere without hearing that stuff, however well meaning. Brighid, you're obvioulsy entitled to your opinion, and you did offer it in supportive way. I'm sorry if I'm a bit of a b**** about the subject, but for what it's worth, I am trying not to be. I should have finished the thread before posting in the first place.

brighid

I made no such assumption. I simply stated my perspective and that my mind did change. Again, nothing more and nothing less.

I have made no comment to lead you to believe that I do not respect the 35 year old adult who has made this choice. You are infering things that do not exist either in my statements, or in my thought process.

I am sorry but I disagree. I am completely able to understand the rewards of being a non-parent. I have been a non-parent and am capable of understanding the perspective of those who do not want children. I also respect their position. I would say that it is much more difficult for a non-parent to understand the parenting perspective then vice versa.


I wasn't saying it again to rub salt in anyone's wound, but I think it was pretty clear that I was stating it as an explanation as to why those annoying friends and family might make those comments. I feel that with understanding perspective and motivations that perceived offenses can be reduced or eliminated. That was my desire. If it offended you I apologize, but I am rather offended that you have assumed many things about my statements and ideas that don't actually exist.

She can make that choice many ways and permanent sterilization seems an irresponsible choice so early in life. No one should make that permanent choice without hearing the arguments for and against any decision. I see nothing in the OP, or anywhere else that makes it clear that opinions from parents are prohibited. A person cannot make an informed decision when all they hear is positive affirmation.

If she/or the originator of the OP are looking for affirmative support statements only I feel they can speak for themselves. No such thing was asked and I don't feel I have made any inappropriate comments to warrant curtailing my thoughts, or opinions otherwise.

I apologize to the childless if my perspective has insulted anyone. It was certainly not meant in that way, but I will not apologize for that perspective just as I would not ask for those who don't desire children to do the same.

Brighid

Immaculate Deception

I started this post out of frustration, wanted to vent, to be supported possibly, and also to read an array of viewpoints. I was hoping to hear something positive, because in a lot of ways I feel discriminated against. I truly appreciate all responses.

On the bright side, I have renewed the conversation with my husband and I believe that it might go somewhere this time...action talks and bullshit walks...we'll see where this takes us. Last time it was the latter and when I asked why he was putting it off...well...the knife defense came up. Now that we know that a no scalpel surgery is common, I think that the chances are good for a vasectomy.... and he'll be justly rewarded


ID

girlwriter

Brighid,

As I said in my first post, I had not read the whole thread before posting. I sincerely apologise (for the third time) for responding inappropriately to your statements in my original post.

You say that you never meant to offend, and I believe you. However, your statements were *slightly* offensive to me, and I tried to explain why. I did this because I have found that my experience in this matter is quite common. I'm trying to communicate here. It's extremely frustrating that a person looking for support on this issue has to run into this kind of thing continuously.

The fact that you shared your experience lead me to blieve that you feel the people reading it should consider it. (Which you actually did say in your last post.) By extension, it implies that you may feel that we haven't considered it. (Or that you failed to consider the implications of your statements.) Since your intent was *only* to offer an explanation of why people are rude, then I was wrong and I apologize for that. I will maintain, however, that an explanation for rudeness is not an excuse for rudeness.

It's true that your experience should be considered, but do you really believe that people don't hear this point of view? Relentlessly? That's the whole point. We hear it *relentlessly.* We're tired of it. I really don't think this is the place for it. It seemed very clear to me that ID wanted postive support. If not here, where?

Even though you have experienced life as a non-perent, you are a parent now. As you have said, that changes your perspective. You don't know what it would be like to be you, now, with no kids. You are claiming that you have perspective that a childfree person cannot have, and you expect to recieve the benefit of the doubt. I expect the same courtesey. Your experience as a parent is not *greater* than mine. It is *different* than mine.

I certainly never asked or expected you to apologize for your perspective, or anything else. I was simply trying to explain to you why I personally felt that your comments were misplaced in this thread. I have since apologized repeatedly for my original harshness, and it's fallen on completely deaf ears. I don't really know what else to say.

The Other Michael

No-scalpel vasectomies? The only kind I can think of is the elastic banding they do to turn bulls into steers, and that seems a bit drastic (at least in your husband's case).



I'll mention that the SC&L is a "preaching free zone", but that means religious preaching. Support threads may contain comments that are not in complete agreement with the position put forth in the OP, but still are offered in a kind and constructive way in the spirit of support.

Also, it is the perogative of the person starting the thread to ask that certain types of comments be offered/avoided. In the absence of any stated preferences by the originator, people participating in the thread should not take it upon themselves to decide what is or is not appropriate in the posts of others in the discussion.

This is not to say that you can't disagree with someone, but you should avoid turning a support thread into a debate.

If you see something that you feel may be inapropriate, use the "report this post" link and notify the moderators, as it is their job to deal with (what they determine to be) inappropriate posts.

cheers,
Michael

brighid

Girlwriter,

First off, my original reply was directly to Immaculate Deception (which you agree was supportive) and my second reply was a direct response to DMB. I stated that *I* changed my mind, not that anyone else should and therein IS the difference. The "slight" offense that you have taken from the fact that *I* had a change of heart over time is yours to own. If I had said, "All you non-parent people SHOULD reconsider your position because I had a change of heart" then I feel you would have a right to assert my rude/offensive behavior. I merely affirmed I had a similar experience to DMB. Nothing more AND nothing less! You do not have a right not to be offended, and frankly I feel that taking offense where none was clear, but was perceived through false assumptions is not anyone's responsibility but the person taking offense.

Yes, I do think various view points should be considered as I think that is always most prudent. Your assumptions about my thoughts and intents are wrong and I would appreciate the continued harping about my alleged rudeness to cease. I have explained myself, I have apologized and that should be enough.

Brighid

brighid

Immacualte Deception,

I apologize if you felt my direct reply to DMB was in any way offensive, unkind, or rude. I have do doubt that you and the others (besides perhaps the 20 year old) have made the decisions that are best for you. I respect your choice and I would not second guess that decision.

I feel it is wrong that non-parents are discriminated against and treated poorly by their loved ones because they choose not to have children. Parenting is an enormous responsibility and I only wish that more parents would give the challenges, responsibilities and rewards as much thought as you and the other non-parents have. I think there would be far fewer abused and neglected children suffering in this world if they did.


Sincerely,
Brighid

Godless Dave

I disagree strongly with the word "irresponsible" here. It may be an unwise choice but it is not irresponsible. I say it may be unwise because I know one (exactly one) woman who was sure she didn't want children until she was about 30, was undecided for about a year, and is now sure she does want them.

But, you could argue that that's her biology talking, and the wise thing to do would have been to get sterilized at age 20 when she was still thinking straight! That's exactly what I told people when I was considering a vasectomy in my 20s. "You might change your mind when you're older" "All the more reason to do it now!"

I never got around to getting a vasectomy, and I've now moved into the undecided camp. But I worry, a lot, that my attitude changed for the wrong reasons. I'd like to think that as I have built up maturity and self-esteem I am now much more confident in my ability to raise children despite my impatient, peace-and-quiet-loving, night owl nature. I think that's part of the picture, but there is also the fact that ALL of the women I have dated in the past 10 years were sure they wanted children. Including the very nice, almost-perfect-for-Dave woman I have a date with tonight. I'd hate to make such an important life decision just so I can find a woman to marry, but there it is.

As it stands now, I'm pretty sure I could be a reasonably good parent and that I would enjoy certain aspects of it. But I KNOW I could live the rest of my life childless with little regret.

brighid

I would agree. Thank you for pointing that out. I will go back and edit it. Edited to add: darn it, I can't go back and edit it as too much time has passed ... buggers.

I think questioning your motivations is good! It might be a mix of things, but then again only you can determine that.

I know what you mean about ones nature. Now that my son is 9, going on 10 we have a ton of freedom. It also helps that we have a good support network that when we want to go away for a long weekend alone it is never a problem to do so. We don't have to dress him in the morning, he can get a bowl of cereal with no problem, we can sleep in on the weekends, we have a fair amount of disposable income, he is a good traveler and we enjoy traveling with him, he enjoys spending time with his friends and very often we have Friday and or Saturday nights free to do adult things, I have the freedom of having girls nights without worrying about breast feeding a baby, and most of all he is really a great kid, tons of fun, and I do enjoy being a mom ... so now that we are actively attempting for one of those baby things I begin to mourn the temporary loss of many of those freedoms, at the same time I relish the idea of having a baby again.

It is difficult, when looking for a mate (who largely want to reproduce) to not potentially compromise on that issue. I don't think you should have to, but I can understand your motivation. I made it pretty clear when I met my husband that I wasn't very open to the possibility of incubating one of those flesh-loafs myself. He would have to accept my son, adoption and/or no other children. He was perfectly fine with that. Obviously that has changed, but for reasons unique to our situation that shouldn't reflect on anyone elses choices.

Oh - a date with a nearly-perfect-for-Dave-woman? AWESOME!! You certainly deserve a woman who can appreciate you. You'll have to PM me and let me know how it went!

Honestly, from what I know of you I think you would do a pretty darn good job if you decided to be a father. You do change somewhat upon having a child, whether it is your own, adopted, or acquired through marriage/committed relationship. It is pretty inevitable given the situation. It's a learning and growing process just like any other challenge in life.

All you can do is what is best for you. You might change your mind, and you might not. I do think people can and are perfectly happy without children in their lives. I know many couples and singles who are.

I will refrain from talking about some of the rewards of parenting in this thread though

Thanks for sharing,
Brighid