luvluv

Would anybody care to substantiate the "there ain't no free will" argument?

Hondo

luvluv

Thank you for the respect, and I will indeed check into some of your past threads. With all due respect, would you mind responding to this:

quote:
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Hell is the abdication of free will to the desires as a consequence of submitting to your desires.
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Here you seem to miss the point. If this were true, then peoples actions alone would destine themselves to hell. Manson, Hitler, Pol Pot, ad infinitum would surely have no fate but enternity in hell. Yet I have encountered a fairily standard refrain in my search for truth, Manson, Hitler, Pol Pot, ad infinitum will make it to heaven if they accept christ as their savior, christ died for the sins of all. A hell without Manson, Hitler, Pol Pot, ad infinitum, is clearly preferable to a heaven with such maniacs.

Hondo

NialScorva

Does the US law grant the freedom to steal?

In a pragmatic sense, every person has the ability to choose to steal, and if he so chooses, then jail is the natural consequence of his choice. This doesn't invalidate his ability to choose. So we can say that the US grants you the right to choose theft, correct?

Automaton

Christian mercy: Whilst visiting a foreign country on vacation, you are struck unconscious and dragged off to the lair of a bizarre underground cult. When you come to, you are laying in the centre of a large, metallic, cubical room. There are no features in the room except the vague outlines of two doors, marked '1' and '2' respectively. You warily pull yourself to your feet and start to wonder if you are dreaming. This train of thought is suddenly broken as a sharp voice booms from an unknown source, "Hello. We are glad you are awake." Startled, you defiantly shout back, "Who are you, and what do you want?" After a brief silence the voice appears again, "Who we are is not of importance yet. What is important right now is that you have been selected to join our very special group. But of course, it must be absolutely your choice to join, because we are merciful and just. If you walk through door 1, you will become one of us, and you will feast day and night, have unimaginable riches, and be above the law wherever you go. However, if you choose to walk through door 2, we will cut you to little pieces with rusty chainsaws." Sighing, you make your way to door 1 and think to yourself, "So much for being merciful and just."

HRG

My desires are to love my wife, read a good book, talk with interesting people and play some bridge.
They do not include killing or harming anyone (not even Amalekites).

How is "submission to those desires" going to make me a sadist (total or partial)? Please explain.

BTW, if God locks me into hell, he is responsible if I am harmed by other inmates.

HRG.

Automaton

So you believe it is a logically necessary condition for beings with similar cognitive abilities as us? If not, then it is indeed imposed. If it is unavoidable, why do only theists and no non-theists reach the conclusion that there is a hell? Would there be a hell without God?
I don't see much difference.
Abuse of free will? That very statement clarifies the point of this thread.
Well yeah, but God is obviously not very concerned about the percentage of us that think hell is nothing more than a fairy tale.
Uh, so... does hell come before or after we die? If hell is not an imposed state, then there cannot be a literal actuality of consciousness after one dies for hell to take place. And we obviously don't see people "becoming" hell during their lives! (I hope.)
The whacky world of Christianity, where one's greatest desires are to go around drinking the blood of virgins and have giant, indescribable orgies with monkeys of some kind.
So, now you state succumbing to "desires" is not really "becoming hell" after all, rather, hell is the company of others who have the same fate as you? Maybe if you weren't so contradictory and obscure, we'd have a better chance of being "saved", whatever the hell that is.
Ask a fundamentalist Christian which way to hell, and they will likely point downwards. They believe it is a literal place with lakes of hot, nasty stuff, and lots of other not-so-nice stuff.

nixon

That is a pretty good description of the Christian "choice" Automaton.

Heres a better one:

2 Thessalonians 2

6)And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9) Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10) And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12) That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Theres your Christian "freewill" in a verse luvluv. I tell you now theres a lot more where that came from.

nixon

The BIG difference is that a thief knows there are some pretty good odds that he'll get away with it. Jail is NOT the natural consequence of his action. Only people who don't believe in free will believe that there are "natural" consequences to any moral action.

[As an aside: I used to be a Christian. The very usage of this kind of verbiage "natural consequence" indicates heavy indoctrination. Please attempt to rise above that so as we can look upon you as a real person and not just a parrot of the religion. And if you must be a parrot of the religion, then you help to prove my point that there is not meant to be free will in Christianity]

The Christian (Or person who knows the theology) knows there is zero chance of "getting away" with the wrong choice. Another issue is that the US law does not attempt to give someone free will to choose to steal. It is simply incapable of preventing the exercise of that free will.

Now concerning that salvation issue. Heres what the religious folk neglected to tell you: There actually is no choice in belief. It's a lie. You either believe what you are told or you do not. I used to believe in the Christian stuff. When people told me differently, I didn't believe them. They had little to no effect on my belief. At some point I recieved information that changed my beliefs. I could no longer believe the old beliefs. That is the hypocrisy of the church. They want to make you feel guilty if you can't believe what they do. If you were a Christian before your beliefs changed, they say Satan got you or that you were not a true Christian afterall. If You believe in a different set of unfounded beliefs, they say Satan has corrupted your mind. I say if Satan is this powerful, you Christian folk are screwed. If you never believed, they call you a barbarian and send missionaries to convert you. And it don't matter to the church if it kills you to convert you. Just so long as they can say they gave it the old college try.

I never meant this to go so long. I just get frusterated talking to people who's own belief says they are scum and ain't even worthy to (fill in blank action) God. Hey newsflash: You people believe that God made you. He should think better of His handiwork. So should you. Humans are quite creative. Afterall we even scared God:

Also keep in mind folks that my belief or disbelief in the actually phenomenon called "free will" is not dependant upon what the bible says. I use that only to illustrate that Christians do not (Or should not if they believe their holy book) believe in free will.

luvluv

"And we obviously don't see people "becoming" hell during their lives!"

Not true. Hang around people who have dedicated their lives to hatred or lust or drugs or any other vice. They slowly lose their free will to their choices, they lose self-control. If the object of their hatred, or lust, or addiction is present to them, they give in to it with increasingly less resistance. Now, it being that Christianity teaches us that the human spirit is eternal, extrapolate that tendecny out for a thousand or two thousand years. After millenia of submitting to their desires, what is left of that person?

"The whacky world of Christianity, where one's greatest desires are to go around drinking the blood of virgins and have giant, indescribable orgies with monkeys of some kind."

It is not entirely a matter of how bad your desires are, its a matter of whether or not you are in control of them. If you are so addicted to food you have no ability to deny yourself a meal, then you have lost free-will to food. It is the loss of free will that constitutes hell, it doesn't really matter what you lose your free will to.

"So, now you state succumbing to "desires" is not really "becoming hell" after all, rather, hell is the company of others who have the same fate as you?"

It's both, my friend.

"Maybe if you weren't so contradictory and obscure, we'd have a better chance of being "saved", whatever the hell that is."

What is the contradiction? I said that the sadism of the other people is where the torture in hell comes from. They are tormenting each other. How does that contradict anything else I've said?

"Ask a fundamentalist Christian which way to hell, and they will likely point downwards. They believe it is a literal place with lakes of hot, nasty stuff, and lots of other not-so-nice stuff."

I don't generally plan my day around what fundamentalist Christians believe.

nixon:

I am not a Biblical literalist, so I think Paul on this point was mistaken.

Nixon can you lay out systematically why Christians should not believe in free will? Is it because of scattered Biblical passages that seem to be indicative of God not allowing free will. I would really like for you to lay it out as an argument, not as anectdotes, so that we can discuss it.

ex-preacher

The Christian concept of hell is a lake of fire into which god throws people. It is imposed, it is supernatural, and it most certainly is not a "natural consequence."

<strong> The threat of hell and promise of heaven are used as coercion throughout the teachings of Jesus as recorded in the synoptic gospels.

<strong> A nice summary of the views of a mild-mannered hell proposed by CS Lewis. Can you please cite book, chapter and verse from the Bible for these views? (I think I know the answer to that one.)

<strong> It is, therefore the point stands.