Seraphim

"Ok, now what is the nature of this "questioning" that it can't be done by the brain?"

My reply : a VERY Good question.

The answer lies in looking at how an animal behaves and how human behave. There is one mechanism which common in animals - "Flight or Fight" mechanism. Animals depends on this mechanism to survive and their survival is depended on it.

An herbivor which which chased by a predator (carnivor) will choose "Flight" rather than "flight" since the chance of survival is higher, and it will "fight" ONLY if it is forced to do so, for example, cornered in a tight spot or surrounded by several predators. Such behavior is called "Automaton".

Humanity doesn't seems to follow this pattern - and when they are forced out of Africa (as stated by Out-of Africa theory and Mitochondria Eve theory, you can get the info. from the Net), humanity left it's familiar surrounding and venture into a new surroundings, just like an animal could in any migrations.

But the difference didn't stop here, instead of stopping in one place and move back and forth across familiar surroundings (such as what animals could do and still doing), they ventured into a new area - across Mid-East, into India, South-east Asia, to Australia and all the way to China. This showed that they no longer follow the mechanism of "fight or flight".

You could say that it was forced upon them as before, but geographical survey indicated that the last ice age ended some 100,000 years ago, and the world were more suitable for settling in one place.

So, to make the story short, the Mind was capable of questioning humanity own surrounding to an extend that humanity went above that of a common animal would and first define himself as an intelligent lifeform.

"Ok, so what's the purpose of the brain if it can't, by definition, add functionality to the mind?"

My reply : My assumption is that the brain teaches the Mind new things - emotions, pleasure and pain etc in attempt to make the Mind more and more active in process of questioning.

In another word, the Mind is a database while the Brain is a temporary storage space, it add to a permanent database since it's existence is limited. While the Mind could strive without brain (as soul could without a body), a brain will not be able to function without it's database.

"The simple explanation is RAM is much faster than mass storage (hard drive)."

My reply : True - faster than hard disk, BUT prone to damage easily plus database prone to lost if power failure occurs. True?

"Use? What use? You just said above there is nothing the mind lacks that the brain can provide. Is the brain of use to the mind or isn't it? "

While the Mind lacks nothing, it still can be affected by attachment and sensation - such as emotion, pain and pleasure. Remember, I also stated that the brain needs the Mind to do "questioning" job for it since without such ability, the brain of a human being is no better than that of an animal.

In lay man's term, what makes a human human is his ability to question, ability to find an answer and ability to put what he thought into action. Animals are not capable of this yet, the most basic thing they could do is mimic other creatures and use of basic tools.

Seraphim

"You do not need to contradict yourself.
My shirt is blue. Therefor, souls don't exist. "

My reply : Illogical analogy. Your shirt is blue and therefore there is no soul? VERY immature analog which has no bearing whatsoever to both statements.

"Show me the contradiction. My claim was not that you contradicted yourself but that you did not provide evidence for your case. You supplied evidence for NDE's occuring. Your conclusion is soley your own."

My reply : Correction. I put my evidence and claim that it is one of the reason of NDE and OBE. You no need to agree with me, that is your choice solely but to say my claim is wrong, that requires some explaination from your side.

"I have no need to explain how people can remember things CLEARLY because you have not shown that NDE's remeber CLEARLY. Not only is your sample size incredibly small, there is nothing extreme shown in the examples. "

My reply : Clearly? Extreme? What do you meant by that?

"How about you start testing NDE's. Go to hospitals, and while people are near death with no brain activity you can use a true random number generator to produce a number between 1 and 1,000,000,000. Then write it down on a card in large letters and enter the room with a person that is recieving no external stimuli and is near death. If the person comes back and had a NDE they should be able to tell you the number on the card. Do this enough to get a good sample and compare to results to people guessing without having a NDE. Then come share the results."

My reply : That's is what National Geographic suggested and some hospitals in UK and US is doing now. They place some neon board about a operating table and wait to see whether anyone could experience NDE and OBE and sees those randomly generated numbers (it started last year). So far, there was 23 cases but none about to reach that point where the board is.

"Woah nelly. Aren you not trying to prove a soul exists? You can't start by assuming a soul. Your proof for the soul comes from it fitting the evidence, remember? My little green men with memory control devices fit the evidence too.
To start, neither should exist, we need to prove them. And my little green men explain NDE's just as well as your soul theory. They both fit the evidence. Why is your soul a better explaination?"

My reply : Your little green men is a fiction, NDE and OBE is not a fiction as plenty of people who has no connection to each other had claimed to experienced it. If that is all you could come out with to counter my claims, I believe I'm wasting my time with you.

"Fair enough. No evidence for it and you admit your assumption."

My question : Why does some fatally-illed patients (such as cancer and leukimia patients)live longer than others of their same status?

Seraphim

"Seraphim, you've responded to everyone that has posted in this thread except for me. Please respond. Your "argument" depends on it."

My reply : THAT is because there is nothing in your statement which I required to answer. Read how others post the questions first and ask properly.

My reply will depend on HOW you ask your question.

"And I have to say that you have not done anything to tell us what a soul is. NDEs can be precisely simulated with drugs (notably ketamine) and are what one might expect from an oxygen-starved brain spiralling into unconsciousness. "

My reply : NDE simulated by drugs? First time I heard of it. Mind showing me any site where I can read more about it?

As for what is Soul question, read my 1st post properly and ask me again. Keyword - Sentient being.

Aquila ka Hecate

Seraphim,


<a href="http://leda.lycaeum.org/Documents/Using_Ketamine_to_Induce_the_Near-Death_Experience.9260.shtml" target="_blank">Here's a link on ketamines inducing nde s</a>

Also

I realize that English probably isn't your first language, but do try and develop a sense of the sardonic when dealing with II.

You had me laughing aloud at your reply, although I really don't mean to be unkind.

Seraphim

Thank you for your post about Ketamine. One question - does the brain produce any Ketamine or any substance with the same properties as Ketamine? Is Ketamine synthesis drug?

Ketamine does works on dying brains, but how about brains which had been flatlined? Does the brain release Ketamine or any substances with same properties as Ketamine before it goes offline?

Corgan Sow

My reply : Little green men? Is there any prove there even exist of little green men? Your assumption is more fictional than my appraoch.

You didn't believe in little green men and now expect me to believe in God? You didn't produce evidence to counter green men claims, you just shoved it off. Show me green men doesn't exist.
And please do not belittle people's opinions. Yours are no different. You're the one who's inviting your guests here for some discussion, don't turn it into a flame war.

Show me where do I contradict myself by providing explaination without some sort of working model. I choose Machines such as computers and robotic because that is the most closest we get to another "human" as we can get at present time.

Does machines have souls?

There, illogical analogy.

My reply : Your little green men is a fiction, NDE and OBE is not a fiction as plenty of people who has no connection to each other had claimed to experienced it. If that is all you could come out with to counter my claims, I believe I'm wasting my time with you.

They're wasting your time? HELLO! KNOCK! KNOCK! This is your topic, remember? Give some respect at least with "I'm afraid your claims is irrelevant, forgive me."

Soon, like me, everyone will find you an ass. Don't.

Corgan Sow

The most common question in whether God exists or not is by asking WHAT is soul and proof that soul
exists.

You have yet gave your own definition of soul. Please make one.

In Buddhism (and Hindusm), Sentient being are Soul or "The Very Subtle Mind". It didn't start simply with the coming of Mankind, it started with the start of Evolution itself on the Planet.
Millions of years on the Planet when the 1st lifeform in form of single-celled organism appeared, thus the 1st Sentient born. From that point onward.

I believe you tried to define it (soul), but I'm afraid you're still vague. care to elaborate? You only explained the existence of life.

[b]"More specifically, in Buddhist philosophy a sentient being is one who is aware of dukkha, and is capable of experiencing the qualia of suffering and happiness. A sentient being experiences its inputs (perceptions) and outputs (actions), in contrast to an automaton where no subjective states occur, and all meanings have to be assigned to inputs and outputs from 'outside the system'"

I believe this topic should be "Soul and God: Buddhism and Scientific approach". Buddhism does not have any belief in any deity/deities. Try again.

Sentient being increase their own intelligence and mind by experiencing more and more "sensations", suffering etc thus comes out with its own path of survival. The goal of a sentient being is simple - avoid suffering and find happiness.

You are asserting. This isn't evidence.

This shifting of mind from one dying body to another can be proven by Quantum Theory.

okay.

In Quantum Theory, when a matter gets enough energy, it will leaps into the next "stage" - ladder of energy level and continue "leaping" from one energy state to another till it runs out of energy.

Isn't this topic should be "The concept of soul in Buddhism defined by science"? I'm waiting your explanation how you conclude this leads to God.

You're also contradicting Buddhist concept of karma. You mean that one has limited lifespan of reincarnation? When one failed to get enlightenment in time, the soul ceases? Please expound.

Seraphim

"You didn't believe in little green men and now expect me to believe in God? You didn't produce evidence to counter green men claims, you just shoved it off. Show me green men doesn't exist.
And please do not belittle people's opinions. Yours are no different. You're the one who's inviting your guests here for some discussion, don't turn it into a flame war."

My reply : I don't not believe I expected you to believe anything, and I certainly DON'T care on what you believe. As for as I could consider, you can believe whatever you want.

The only reason I open this thread is to discuss why Atheist should respect Religionist (which you clearly not showing in Cari forum) since they do not know EVERYTHING.

"Does machines have souls?

There, illogical analogy."

My reply : ONLY to illogical mind like yours.

The reason I choose computers (machines) as my example is it has two objects which could be used as example to a brain and a mind - the RAM as the Brain with limited storage space, not damage-free and depends on the power to function and the Hard disk - which do not change whether there is power or no power. My analog is proper, your understand that is problem here.

"They're wasting your time? HELLO! KNOCK! KNOCK! This is your topic, remember? Give some respect at least with "I'm afraid your claims is irrelevant, forgive me.

Soon, like me, everyone will find you an ass. Don't. "

My reply : Thank you for your advice, but please keep it to yourself.

So far I spoke to several people who asked properly and give proper remark. Having one or two with illogical analog such as little green men and asking question in unproper manner is nothing to me other than waste of my time since I will not entertain it. If you want to know something, ask and I will explain as best of my ability.

"One question - does the brain produce any Ketamine or any substance with the same properties as Ketamine? Is Ketamine synthesis drug? "

My answer : I believe I found the answer to my own question.
<a href="http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/ketamine/ketamine.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/ketamine/ketamine.shtml</a>

<a href="http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/ketamine/ketamine_timeline.php3" target="_blank">http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/ketamine/ketamine_timeline.php3</a>

Which means that Ketamine is not a naturally occuring drug (drug produced by plant or animal). Now we have to see whether or not the Brain produces some kind drug with the same properties as that before we can assume that this is the cause of experiences such as NDE and OBE.

Corgan Sow

My reply : I believe this is a proper analog simply because it is made by man in attempt to duplicate man. In all sense, computers and robots are here to show what we are made of.

In a computer, there is two - not one, hardware which could serve as memory - the RAM which attached to the motherboard (in my opinion, that's the brain, since life is short) and the Hard disk which stored all the data which processed through the user's interface with the computer. This data is stored permanently in the hard disk and unaffected even after the computer is turn off, while the information from the RAM is erased everytime the computer is turn off.

In such context :
Motherboard with RAM = human brain attached to its body.

Hard disk (separate entity from motherboard) = Soul/Mind

Electricity = Energy created by the body through food.

Heat Fan = Waste disposal system in humans.

I think what you're trying to prove so far is just that the brain can still retain it's past data when "resurrected", like you explained. Unfortunately, I can counter that with:

Motherboard with RAM = The human body

Hard disk (separate entity from motherboard) = Human brain, seperate from the body.

Electricity = The soul

Heat Fan = Waste disposal system in humans.

I can agree with you on the "soul" part, but evidence has yet proven where the electricity goes when your computer is completely devastated.

Corgan Sow

The only reason I open this thread is to discuss why Atheist should respect Religionist (which you clearly not showing in Cari forum) since they do not know EVERYTHING.

No, you disrespected atheists. Prove:

Why I keep flaming? You haven't sprayed me with water, you just provided additional coal. Thank you.

<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=55&t=000656" target="_blank">http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=55&t=000656</a>

<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=55&t=000653" target="_blank">http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=55&t=000653</a>




Don't be an ass. Again.