Ted Hoffman

I need your opinion on this. I related the story to a friend who knows us both (me and my GF) and told me she is playing me and that I should dump her immediately.
You could tell me "Why not just ask her?" But I know she would simply say "no". It would be an admission of my inability to interpret facts and make conclusions.
I am asking because maybe I am just naive or in denial or simply lacking the guts to face the truth. Or maybe its simply because I beleive in her. My gut feeling is she has not slept with him anyway. But maybe I am blinded with emotion and I am trying to hold onto the motif that I want her to be - even in the face of all this.
Some of you remember the thread <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=55&t=000789&p=1" target="_blank">Clarice & others Advice on Dilemma Please </a> where Clarice, Helen, Pescifish and others offered me some valuable advice.
I wrote a PM to Buffman and he told me the main reason I was having such a difficulty "accepting" my separation from my GF and allowing her to go and work in Sudan was because I am an emotional infant and that she was taking it in stride because she had grown emotionally. He also said it wasnt exactly wise to apply so much reason to love because I risk getting into the rationalizations that arise from emotional entanglement.
So I had my deep emotional pains, we discussed it and I finally acquiesced to let her go. I also decided to proceed and propose as I had been planning to do. I decided that perhaps I was an emotional infant indeed. Buffman took a wild guess and said that perhaps the "fire" was gone but that she simply couldnt tell me yet. He advised me that we should strive to communicate more honestly. She vehemently disagreed that the fire had died (I shared with her what Buffman had to say). I beleived her. Now I have to start questioning everything. And I need your help on this.

On 18th Nov, she came to her room past midnight. At the time, she was far from me, in Southern Sudan. When I asked her where she'd been she told me she'd met this guy from Sudan bla bla bla bla bla bla. I said "okay". But I wondered, what were the odds of a woman meeting a man in a strange land on the same day and spending time with him up to midnight? Doing what? Talking about what? I shared my concerns here and I was advised that I should be glad she has found a friend and that I should consider it a good thing that she did tell me about it etc. So I took it down without further suspicions. I asked her about the guy and she said he is a "mature man" and is married etc. So I thought, well, if he is mature and married, he wont be darting her he should keep his distance. I relaxed.
Then, her bedtime hours changed. She used to sleep at 10pm or so, now she started coming to her room past midnight. And whenever I asked her discreetly what she had been doing, she answered me by telling me what she did during the day. I did not press it but my suspicion started budding with these unanswered questions.
I never wanted her to think I dont trust her. And I strove to dismiss any suspicious thoughts that kept floating in my mind. I wanted to trust her completely. And to some level, I did.
Then we had this tussle over her job. I characterised myself as an emotional infant and agreed to let her go.

So she came to the same city I am in. We made up for the lost time and my emotional pain eased largely - though i still wasnt happy about her leaving given she couldnt specify how long she would do the job and given I refuted all the reasons she had for opting for the job - I decided not to stand in her way. Its been two weeks now.
Now, when she had to go upcountry and see her mum, she called the guy and informed him that she was going home. All the bells in my head started ringing loudly.
Why did she have to tell him that - does he have to know where she is and what she is doing? I wondered? Whats going on here? Then after she'd made the call, she told me she was calling him. She said I should meet him and that he is a "good man" what astounded me further was that she even mentioned where he lives. Now the bells in my head just went crazy.
Good for what? they asked? How do you know where he lives? And why do you know where he lives? Those bells slammed hard. I got stressed and my immune system went haywire, I got a cold and malaria and had to be in bed for three days.
So I am lying in bed and asking myself. Heh, heh Jack, you are so insecure and jealous, cant you trust your chick?. And she was coming and seeing me on Monday. During her "visitations", the guy calls her and they talk. I hear her saying 5-6 and I am thinking what? a date? She comes and snuggles after the phone call and I ask no questions. The perfect trusting boyfriend.

Later, I decided I cant keep pretending to be who I am not. I write an 8-page letter detailing how since she met that guy things changed and I told her she can have male friends, and that its one thing to call a man a good man and its another to keep calling him and him calling back. If he is so "mature" how come they have so much to talk about and she is 26? I told her she is distracting him from his wife and all the things he is sharing with her, he should be sharing them with his wife, not a young woman like her, IRRESPECTIVE of how mature and married he is. I asked her what she will do next time she meets another "good man" - strike another frienship? I also told her I have met many "good women" and it doesnt mean that I have to start up a friendship with every woman because she is a "good woman". It was a detailed letter and I told her that kind of relationship ULTIMATELY ends up in an affair and that it was questionable and it made me insecure and jealous. I feel better writing because there are no interruptions and I can pause and express exactly what I feel - but perhaps its also a bad sign - that our "communication" is poor. I dont know. I just felt it was okay writing it. I wanted to unburden.

So she calls me later and asks me whether I have eaten and I say no and she asks me what am I doing and I say I am writing her a letter. She asks me if its good and I tell her it depends on how she looks at it. I finnish at midnight (thats 4 hours of writing). Then I tell her via a phone message that its 8 paged and complete and when would she like to have it? Does she think she can come and collect it tomorrow? She says she "will see". And some bells jingle in my head. My GF would cross mountains and rivers to collect a letter from me. The only reason she couldnt come for it, I thought, was because she would be engaged after work (she stops working at 5pm. I stop at 9pm - so she could have come to my workplace to collect it between 5 and 7). So I give her the benefit of doubt. The next day rumbles on and its 9pm. I am home. We have some chitchat after I call her then just before I tell her goodnight, and when I am sensing the conversation is over I ask her pointblank, "Did you go home directly after work?"
She says no, she met the guy etc, and I tell her its okay because I was thinking if she were free, she could have come for the letter. After the call is over, those bells simply go crazy. She calls later to ask me what I am doing (of course she is uneasy and wants to know how I took it) I tell her I am just sitting. Doing what? I tell her watching the TV, but then I am ruminating on the new development.
So I later told her I was hurt and schocked that she was actually "dating" this guy behind my back. I also told her the fact that she kept the date away from me means she knew it was wrong and I wouldnt have approved it. I then shared this with our mutual friend who used to think she is an angel and he told me she is playing me and I should dump her. I was shocked to hear that from someone who respected her and beleived we were one of the finest couples he knew.
I now look back at all those times she came back late to her room and I think I can be sure she was spending the time with him. I remember some women here saying they wouldnt care much if their men slept once or twice with other women so long as their men still loved them; that they want the mind of their men, not their penis. I think perhaps I have lost her mind - I doubt that she has slept with him. How many times have they had dates? I have told told her it is questionable for ANY WOMAN to keep calling a married man and have dates with him whether or not that woman is a saint or whether that woman happens to be her. It sets up both of them for dysfunctional relationships and she told me she got my point.
I never knew a time would come when she would seek and delight in the presence of another man. I have told her I simply have to meet this guy. We are now set to talk soon. I have told her we cant flesh this out in some public place so it will have to be saturday at home. I dont know whether to take a hardline stance or to be gentle, understanding etc, but I have pretty strong feelings against her having this kind of friendship - and that is what I have expressed. What do you think is the best approach?

They dont work together. This guy earns 4 or six times what I earn, she says he is a "good man" and obviously likes being with him and talking to him. Could Buffman's guess have been right? Is it "over"? Can a woman be asking/ demanding for engagement while at the same time cheating? She has not shown me any sign that the "fire" is over - what does this mean?
I have told her I still trust and love her (true) but that I am hurt she could have a date with the guy without telling me.

Do you think she has been cheating on me - I mean, given what I have said here?

[ December 18, 2002: Message edited by: Intensity ]</p>

Jayjay

Yes, she has. But that's just a gut feeling I have upon reading your post, and I wouldn't dare pretend to be an expert.

Um. Anyway, I think that the sex is not the biggest issue here, but rather if she's beginning to like the other guy more than you, perhaps in denial about it herself or maybe just not daring to tell you because she's also involved with you and doesn't want to make a choice between two people who mean a lot to her. I don't think that a direct confrontation needs to be "hard", or such that it would embarrass you if you happen to be wrong... I would go for gentleness all the way. For example, you could bring the topic up once you're comfily lying on the bed or cuddling or watching tv by saying something like "um, I've been wondering, how do you feel about this guy?" or "where do you see yourself in 5-10 years, relationship-wise?" or something else indirect. What you do not want to be is an angry, jealous boyfriend who's looking for an argument.

I guess the same gentleness should be applied to your meeting the guy... if you meet him, just play it safe and try to see how he reacts or how your girlfriend behaves. Does she avoid touching you when he's around, or does she talk differently than usual? Even little things like body language can tell a lot about a person's feelings.

(Hmm, looks like I pretended to be an expert anyway... well let's see what wise words others have to say.)

Corgan Sow

There are things you should ask basically. Is your life dependant on this chick? Do you have any friends you can count on incase she DID did something extreme with that "good man"? In case, I see you have a lot of things to face.

Jay Jay's usual comment that this "good man" is much more intresting than you is a "warning' you should heed. Perhaps she hates your insecurity and your hidden "obsession" with her, but she wouldn't want to break your fragile heart. Besides, since that "nice man" is richer than you, money may be the magnet factor. Chicks dig guys with cash, and angels can turn to sluts overnight. I do not want to be judgmental, you know.

Your emotions will overwelm you, but maybe direct confrontation is the only way to cut this chase short. Be sincerely frank to her that you're concerned about your relationship with your gf over that "nice man". At the same time, control your emotions and incase things turn out bad, do not go freakin' berserk. That's relationship, I've been in your shoes and like it or not, that is part and parcel of life.

[ December 18, 2002: Message edited by: Corgan Sow ]</p>

HelenM

Hi Intensity,

Thanks for posting - I was wondering how things were going.

Evidently not well...

I'm not sure what to say. It does seem that this man is important to her. Perhaps he has been someone she's turned to for companionship and advice. Perhaps he's easy to talk to. I don't know if her relationship with him has taken her from you or whether it's helped her in a general way so she's less emotionally needy, but she's not actually 'in love' with him in a way that means she's not yours any longer.

I think you need to have an honest talk with her in which you try to make it easy for her to be honest with you. She might not even know what the truth is. But if being with you is harder emotionally than being with him it's bound to push her away from you and towards him - that's all I can say. It certainly changes things if she has a choice of men to spend time with; it doesn't necessarily mean your relationship is over but it may well mean she's learning things about her and what she enjoys and she's realizing that you aren't the only man who could ever be interested in her. Which would change her options somewhat.

I'm not sure that 'you're cheating on me, aren't you?' is the best way to approach this. You might do better by saying "I see this man is important to you. Has that changed your relationship with me?" Whatever you say I hope you can move beyond fears and speculations to a point where she's been able to be clearer with you about her current feelings about you and him and her future.

Anyway, please keep us posted.

Helen

Belle

Um you may not like this but perhaps she's looking for a different kind of relationship. One where both of you are included. What if both of you give her something she needs but neither gives her everything she needs. I know each of us wants to be the soul provider of "everything" to one special person but let's face it none of us are equiped to do so.

Sometimes people relinquish their own needs/desires and emotionally blackmail themselves by saying I should be totally commited to this one person. I should get everything I need from this one person and if I'm not it's because I'm to needy or I'm too demanding. Either way my idea of obligation or my significant other's idea of commitment outweighs my needs. People trap themselves. Perhaps she's just exploring her needs. Perhaps it's all a phase.

Honestly the thing that comes to my mind when you say older man younger woman and then include that she called him to tell him she was going home...is a BDSM thing with some Dom/sub type stuff. Again maybe she's exploring her needs and maybe she's exploring a different lifestyle choice. Then again she could just be looking to a father figure for emotional support but if I were this guy's wife and knew he was staying up with a young girl I'd be pissed or I'd be a sub too.

Ted Hoffman

Wow,
She's been "silent" since I sent my last phone message. I dont want to appear to be relenting and be the one seeking to appease her - I am the one supposed to be pacified here!

About Corgan Sows statement "angels can turn into sluts overnight"
That statement makes it difficult to breathe. Its evocative of how whimsical "life" is, the way things can turn out to be such a farce. It can shatter my reality to realize that my A(I call her A) is a gold-digging freak. It would simply break me and leave me with nothing to hold on.

I wouldn't describe myself as insecure. I can support my suspicions with good reason.

These are the times I wish I could sleep for a year straight without waking up.

She sure has plenty of explaining to do. I will try to be tactful and introspective so that I can learn as much as I can.

But I have conceived the worst and I am still alive. I am ready to accept whatever comes - if its bad, I am afraid I might lose my mind, but I am ready to face it.

Thank you all for the advice.

But I have to ask (and the women will have to forgive me for now) - what do women want?!!! I mean, how can one want money, love, sex, support, nice carrerr, sexy figure, fatherfigure, a hunk etc etc at the same time. How many variables must a man keep track of at a time?

This is so bloody frustrating!

[ December 18, 2002: Message edited by: Intensity ]</p>

HelenM

Intensity

I'd suggest that your goal is not to find out exactly the nature of her relationship with this other man but rather to find out whether your and her expectations of what a close relationship entails are compatible.

If you put herself in your shoes, can you think of reasons why she might prefer the other person's company right now? Maybe he just tells her how great she is. Maybe he doesn't care what she's doing when she's not with him. Maybe that freedom and affirmation is important to her.

What can she expect from time with you? Would it be fun for her?

I'm just asking...based on a sense that if I were her I'd probably be looking forward to time with him and dreading time with you...and a lot of that has to do with you, whether she could expect to enjoy being with you, right now, or not...if all you want to do is accuse her of cheating then, that doesn't sound like fun at all.

If some other woman found you attractive and was 'after you', do you think you'd still be in this relationship with her?

Again, I'm just asking in the hope that maybe I can help you think through what you want and where she might be at, in your relationship.

Whatever happens I think you'll be ok, even if it's emotionally hard. It's hard for me to imagine what is worse than being in a relationship with someone who seems not to be interested anymore, if that's where things seem to be, in yours. At least if that is established you could make a break and get on with your life.

It's also hard for me to see how you can resolve her wanting to spend time with this guy and you not liking it at all, even if he is 'just a friend'. If it's a difference, it's a difference and I don't see that you're likely to change her or she's likely to change you.

As always, I wish the best for you, no matter what happens from here on out.

Helen

Pseudonymph

Intensity...As much as I hate to say it, this is something I was referring to earlier, when I said that if she was being that indecisive about her carreer, there may be other things she will be suceptible(SP?) to.

As far as how many things a guy has to keep up with, don't worry about that. You can only be who you are, and strive to be a better person. The trick is... Is the person you are or become, the person that your mate wants to be with?

I'm facing a crossroads right now in my relationship and in my life, so I know exactly what you are going through. The bottom line is, what your girlfriend is doing is wrong. Don't let anyone fool you into thinking otherwise.

I know from experience(recent experience in fact) that you cannot have friendships like that without problems coming up. We, as humans are hard pressed to remain faithful to our lovers. As much as some people will not admit to it, it is very difficult. Some of the best advice I ever got came from my dad, who said the best way to circumvent that problem is to not put yourself in those situations to begin with. This is pretty failsafe in most cases.

A more appropriate question is...What does YOUR woman want?

Does she want this "good man" and his friendship or does she want you? Sorry to be blunt but a choice has to be made. It obviously makes you uncomfortable and she has to respect that. Or she has to decide she doesn't respect that and just tell you outright.

Please take it from me, as I have already made my fair share of mistakes in the recent past, so all of this is clean in my mind.

You sound like a great guy and you really don't need this kind of stress. You need to know that your woman will be true to you and the love you have. I can tell you that there is no better feeling than having "everything on the table" and know that the person you are with has shared everything with you.

You have to decide what is important to you. I hate to see you this way and I know you sure as hell don't like it either. Talk to her honestly, tell her how you feel and if she doesn't respect that, well then...you know exactly what you have to do.

If it's more important to her to spend time with the "good man" when obviously there is something more than friends happening...then I hope you can make the choice that is best for you.

Feel free to email me if you want to talk more. I wish you the best...

simian

If you get the opportunity, talk to the other guy or guys your GF had previously dated. Ask bluntly what the relationship is to the other guy, ask the previous dates why the relationship didn't work out. I am assuming you will get a reasonably honest answer out of them (which may not be the case). Keep in mind I am a bit biased here - in college I was involved with a woman who was dating THREE engineers at the same time, telling each that she was dating them exclusively - two of them worked at the same minimart on back-to-back shifts.

Simian

Richard1366

You first need to quit feeling sorry for yourself. Obviously she has found something in this other man that you can't provide and you are not satisfied with her actions. Sounds to me like your relationship with her is an accident waiting to happen. Why are you writing 8 page letters to her, sounds like a gutless way to face a problem to me.

You need to get on with your life, sounds as if she won't be a part of it, GET OVER IT. Find yourself another love interest and quit being the fallback position for this girl's current and future outside relationships.