Freethought & Rationalism Archive

spurly · 04-03-2003, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by alphatronics
While I can understand why people thing that prayer is important, I'd think the greatest thing possible would be something along the lines of physically helping the person, which would involve a lot more effort than a few thoughts before bedtime.

Actually I think prayer and helping them with their needs go hand in hand. If we aren't willing to do the second, we should not do the first.

Kevin

Goliath · 04-03-2003, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by spurly
Actually I think prayer and helping them with their needs go hand in hand. If we aren't willing to do the second, we should not do the first.

Kevin

As the old saying goes, "hands that help do far more than lips that pray."

Sincerely,

Goliath

spurly · 04-03-2003, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by orac
You must have missed the discussion on whether or not prayer really heals people.

For some odd reason God is incredibly good at curing the common cold in christians, muslims and atheists (and he does so with no favouritism at all), but his track record with cancer in christians, muslims and atheists isn't nearly so impressive. Oddly, it doesn't matter what religion you are, or if you're an atheist, you've got the exact same chance of God curing your cold (pretty good), or your tumor (pretty bad).

Yes, I know, it's all God's Plan To Move In Mysterious Ways. This never seems to comfort kids dying of cancer while people pray for them to get better, though. Don't you wish they'ld understand that God sometimes has to say 'no' when he answers their prayers?

Feel free to prove me wrong if you can. Post some evidence that christians have a better survival rate from cancer than unbelievers.

Incidentally, can you answer this question for me:

Why is it that "God's help" always seems to be people actually doing good things? It doesn't matter whether someone is sick, trapped in a mine or a burning car. No matter how many prayers are said, nothing actually changes until people do something themselves. Oddly, things that people can't do never seem to happen, no matter how many people pray for it. Why is this? I thought prayer worked.

God's method since the beginning of time has been to use people to spread his word. To send people in our life when we need encouragement. To use people to help us when we have an accident or our car breaks down. God comforts us when we go through tough times through other people.

Does God's hand jerk us out of a burning car? No. Does God send people to help us when we need it? At times.

Kevin

Bane · 04-03-2003, 08:19 PM

Depends on the Christian. I think when fundies use the phrase it means "fuck off" or "I hope you burn in hell asshole."

orac · 04-03-2003, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by spurly
Does God's hand jerk us out of a burning car? No. Does God send people to help us when we need it? At times.

So god does exactly the same thing for muslims, christians, and atheists who need help.

Right?

Ok, so now we've established this, what exactly does praying do? Many christians here have openly claimed that prayer will not inspire healing, and that this is not why people should pray.

So, why say "I'll pray for you" when someone is injured?

What good does it do?

I note that despite my request for evidence that God actually favours christians, you failed to even attempt to claim that this evidence exists, much less present any. Can I assume this means you agree with me when I say he doesn't? If you think I'm wrong, can you present any evidence for that?

I'ld love to know why christians have to credit good things to God, when there are real live people who are kind and generous despite not having the appropriate belief in your God.

lpetrich · 04-03-2003, 08:48 PM

spurly:
God's method since the beginning of time has been to use people to spread his word. To send people in our life when we need encouragement. To use people to help us when we have an accident or our car breaks down. God comforts us when we go through tough times through other people.

It would be much more reliable to do such things directly.

Furthermore, caring for others is something that people can do on their own volition; they don't have to be turned into puppets for that to happen.

Does God's hand jerk us out of a burning car? No. Does God send people to help us when we need it? At times.

That's incredibly inefficient and unworthy of an omnipotent being. Especially one who could create Heaven and be done with it.

lpetrich · 04-03-2003, 09:06 PM

Spurly's comments remind me of Judith Hayes's skewering of pop singer Natalie Cole's religious narcissism as expressed in her book Angel on My Shoulder.

Once, when taking LSD, she became convinced that she could fly. And tried to do so from a 20th-story window. She was rescued by some angels -- some fellow stoners.

And when she overdosed on heroin, some angels rescued her in the form of some fellow stoners who injected her with salt water.

She needed money for her habit, so she became a "lure" for prostitutes. A sympathetic cop told her to get the hell out of there; he was another angel.

When touring with her band, she was busted for drugs. Angels intervened again, in the form of band members who scrounged up some bail money.

And when she went somewhere to buy some cocaine, she left only seconds before the cops showed up to bust that spot. Angels again, of course.

And when she was driving under the influence of beer and Quaaludes, her car flipped over. However, she escaped death on account of (who else?) angels.

For my part, I think that angels are unnecessary hypotheses in all these cases.

Nickle · 04-03-2003, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lpetrich
...
And when she was driving under the influence of beer and Quaaludes, her car flipped over. However, she escaped death on account of (who else?) angels.

For my part, I think that angels are unnecessary hypotheses in all these cases.

Sorry to copy from another thread, but it seems appropriate:

Don't you realize that without God all bullets pierce the heart, all car wrecks end in smashed skulls, all cancers spread to the lymph, all lost car keys are never found, all careers are dead ends, all food is poisoned and all fantasies are just that!

emotional · 04-04-2003, 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amie
You are in their thoughts, they are wishing you well and they are praying to God or whoever that you have a healthy recovery. It is a very nice gesture. I hope you see it as such.

Once you know, for example, that a person is a religious Jew, then you should know better than to offer him a piece a bacon. On analogy, once you know a person is an atheist, it would be a token of basic respect to avoid saying such a thing as "I'll pray for you". Atheists too have feelings that shouldn't be hurt.

MollyMac · 04-04-2003, 04:41 AM

Quote:

posted by emotional
Once you know, for example, that a person is a religious Jew, then you should know better than to offer him a piece a bacon. On analogy, once you know a person is an atheist, it would be a token of basic respect to avoid saying such a thing as "I'll pray for you". Atheists too have feelings that shouldn't be hurt.

Absolutely spot on! I've lost count of the number of times I've taken umbrage with people who know I'm an atheist making such a facile comment as "I'm praying for you," when I've been ill.

My responses have ranged from a mild: "Don't bother because it won't make any difference. I'll have a pound of grapes (or whatever) instead."

to

"If you're gonna spend your time praying then pray for the people whose lives have been ruined by the Xian church!"

Very ungracious of me but that's how I feel when people don't respect the fact that I don't share their beliefs. They can pray for me until kingdom come if that's how they get off, but why do feel compelled to tell me about it?

04-03-2003, 09:06 PM	#17
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	Natalie Cole's Religious Narcissism. Spurly's comments remind me of Judith Hayes's skewering of pop singer Natalie Cole's religious narcissism as expressed in her book Angel on My Shoulder. Once, when taking LSD, she became convinced that she could fly. And tried to do so from a 20th-story window. She was rescued by some angels -- some fellow stoners. And when she overdosed on heroin, some angels rescued her in the form of some fellow stoners who injected her with salt water. She needed money for her habit, so she became a "lure" for prostitutes. A sympathetic cop told her to get the hell out of there; he was another angel. When touring with her band, she was busted for drugs. Angels intervened again, in the form of band members who scrounged up some bail money. And when she went somewhere to buy some cocaine, she left only seconds before the cops showed up to bust that spot. Angels again, of course. And when she was driving under the influence of beer and Quaaludes, her car flipped over. However, she escaped death on account of (who else?) angels. For my part, I think that angels are unnecessary hypotheses in all these cases.

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04-03-2003, 08:19 PM	#14
Bane Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 180	Depends on the Christian. I think when fundies use the phrase it means "fuck off" or "I hope you burn in hell asshole."

04-03-2003, 08:48 PM	#16
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	spurly: God's method since the beginning of time has been to use people to spread his word. To send people in our life when we need encouragement. To use people to help us when we have an accident or our car breaks down. God comforts us when we go through tough times through other people. It would be much more reliable to do such things directly. Furthermore, caring for others is something that people can do on their own volition; they don't have to be turned into puppets for that to happen. Does God's hand jerk us out of a burning car? No. Does God send people to help us when we need it? At times. That's incredibly inefficient and unworthy of an omnipotent being. Especially one who could create Heaven and be done with it.

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