Godless Dave

V of F, I understand what you're trying to say. I've always thought that even if homosexuality were a choice [which it isn't], it still isn't immoral because it doesn't hurt anybody, so people have no right to discriminate against people who engage in homosexual behavior.

Captain Pedantic

I think that most people with children (so my own dear mother tells me) would agree that they could tell that their child had a certain personality from, pretty much, the word go (or goo-goo). Pure behaviourism, which suggests that all behaviour and personality is environmentally determined, is not considered valid in modern psychological theory. At least, that's the lasting impression I got from studying psychology for A-level.

Anyway, I wrote a big long post about this in the other discussion on the subject in Misc. Discussions, and I'm not about to repeat it here. But I will agree that religion is probably more of a conscious choice than homosexuality - and yet I still believe that people should be able to practise and apply their religious beliefs freely, as long as they don't harm anyone else, or impose on the rights of anyone else. Therefore, there is no real reason why homosexuality should be considered differently. A Hindu marriage does not impose on a Christian marriage, and a gay marriage does not impose on a straight marriage.

ex-preacher

I would suggest that neither homosexuality nor religious beliefs are conscious choices. Just as no one wakes up one day and decides to be homosexual, so also, none of us atheists could decide to be Southern Baptists.

Still, I think the analogy is valid. Whether or not homosexuality or religious beliefs are choices, they each deserve to be fully protected. No one should lose a job or housing because of sexual or religious orientation. IMO, the behavior of any adult is none of the state's business as long as that behavior does not hurt a child, mental incompetent, or non-consenting adult.

BTW, I'm very proud of my minister (UU Church). He has declared a 1 year moratorium on officiating at weddings in protest of the state's discrimination against a person's gender when it comes to marriage choice. He'll still do religious ceremonies for either gay or straight, but he will not be the agent of the state in signing the certificate.

Veil of Fire

"none of us atheists could decide to be Southern Baptists."

So people don't really "convert"?

Boy, that'll throw the Baptists into a real tizzy!

ex-preacher

Yes, people do convert. My axiom: We can choose our behavior (in general), but not our beliefs.

Thus, a Christian can choose to study the evidence and listen to all sides, at which point he/she will have no choice but to be an atheist.

MadMordigan

none of us atheists could decide to be Southern Baptists

Actual conversion aside, is it not possible for an atheist to ACT like a Southern Baptist?

ex-preacher

As noted above, I fully support equal rights (including the right to marry 1 or more persons of the gender you desire) for all.

However, it should be pointed out that the free exercise of religion is guaranteed by the First Amendment while freedom to marry whomever you please is not a constitutional right. Indeed, the Supreme Court has upheld sodomy laws.

To assert that Christians and/or Republicans are chomping at the bit to oppress everyone is to fabricate a strawman. I have never met a Christian (and I know thousands of fundamentalists) who wished to make Christianity a state religion or who wished to outlaw other religions. They simply believe that singing GBA or using the IGWT motto is their free expression, I disagree on that understanding but I don't proceed to invent a vast right-wing conspiracy to imnpose Xty on everyone.

Contrary to some people's opinion, Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell, as odious as their opinions are to me, are not the equivalent of the Taliban.

Atticus_Finch

I have studied the evidence and listened to all sides. I am still a Christian. In fact, my faith (belief, conviction, understanding, conclusions, call it what you will) is stronger since I have become a regular on the Sec Web. Thank you all for all your efforts.

Regards,

Finch

ex-preacher

This is a non-sequitar. I must conclude one or more of the following:
A. you have not studied all the evidence, or
B. you have not listened very carefully, or
C. you are a liar (or a lunatic, or the Lord)

<strong> (stubbornness, blindness, addiction, delusion)

<strong> Obviously, our work is cut out for us! Let's all try a little harder, shall we?

Atticus_Finch

I am constantly amazed at the level of arrogance displayed here. I do not mean that to be a personal attack.

Can you really believe that thousands, if not millions, of rational, intelligent people of the Christian faith are stupid or ignorant? Do you believe that it is impossible for someone to review the evidence and decide to become a Christian? History is not on your side in that respect.

Regards,

Finch