winstonjen

The same free will that is more valuable than saving rape victims?

Who was the one that LIED by claiming that A&E would die the SAME DAY they ate the fruit? Who puts a lying tongue into prophets on purpose? YHWH.

Typical failure to read the entire post. Magus then said, "Probably full knowledge (presumably of everything) since they were created perfect."

EstherRose

What on earth do you mean? That statement doesn't even make sense. Of course it's late and I'm tired.

There was no lie from God. Prior to that, Adam and Eve weren't going to die. Afterwards, death was a certainty to them. Also after the apple, they died spiritually. Their relationship to God changed dramatically. God does not lie. Why do you think He does?

You're right about one thing, typical failure to read the entire post. Here I've quoted it in its entirety. Don't see "presumably of everything" in there.

winstonjen

Then please re-read it when you're feeling ready. Why did your god value free will more than a state of affairs where NO ONE has to suffer. It's the same argument that Christians use when people ask "Where was god when the child was raped?" They reply, "But god loves free will. He couldn't intervene without everyone becoming robots."

To which most atheists say, "What about the VICTIM'S free will?"

Withholds the truth, at least. A&E didn't know what death was. And is states in Genesis: "The DAY you eat that fruit you shall surely die."

I don't think it's an unfair assumption.

RED DAVE

1. Where did the Devil come from?

2. How did he become evil when he was created perfect and without free will?

3. Where did the evil in the Devil come from if the Devil is unable to create?

4. If God created the potential for evil (free will) in the Devil or human beings, isn't God, in some sense, responsible for evil?

5. Where did Cain get his wife?

RED DAVE

Volker.Doormann

Forget it what you have heard on a sunday school.

Eve. Eve is not a word which has the origin in the anglo-american language. It is taken from the Hebrew language word Chavvah http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/STRHEB23.htm; which means life-giver, and the Jews have taken this word from the Sanskrit language word Shiva, which is also a life-giver. From this you can learn, that it is wrong to take Eve as an anglo-american word, as it is wrong to take Chavvah as a hebrew word. Because Shiva = Chavvah = HWH*) = Eva = Eve is not a historic person, only a symbol of an aspect of the female part of menkind in nature, it is senseless to make rational brain acrobatic on this symbol ( *) YHWH is the god of physical life ).

You can process an analyze in the same way on the name Adam, which is also a word from the Hebrew language and means 'red' or 'red blood', as it is preserved in the word 'Edema' and symbols the physical biological part of men, containing blood, and is also not a historic person.

The hole Genesis is a myth containing symbols of the creation of physical life and because this is a theme people do not like to speak on clear in public, it was hidden after symbols. But behind the symbols of two naked humans of different sex in a story of creating life, one can find some interesting details. In Genesis 2:9 it is spoken about a 'Tree of life', which is a symbol of a penis, and it is spoken about a 'Garden of joy' (Hebrew: 'Gan Eden'), which is the female womb. Then the process of creating physical life, as it is known by experience to many people after their puberty, is written in symbols:

Gen 2:9: "And the Lord of the gods has let grown trees ... tempting to contemplation ... and he put the 'Tree of Life' inmidst of the 'garden of joy' ... In the 'garden of joy' a river is flowing, to water it. This (process) is sequenced in four phases (Hebrew words in parenthesis) :

The first phase is called Pishon, it means growing, increasing, enlarge.
Then a circle shaped hole (Havilah) is 'comprised' (cabab).
In the second phase something is 'bursting out' (Gihon).
In the third phase something is 'moving' (halak) 'a step' 'rapidly' (Chiddqel) 'forwards' (qidmah) (Ashshuwr).
In the fourth phase something is 'grow tired' or 'collapsing' or 'break down' (per-awth=EuPhrat)."

Bible reads this: Gen 2:10. "And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads. The name of the first is Pison:that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold; And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone. And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia. And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates."

Here it is spoken about the 'water of life', which is 'watering' the female womb to create physical life coming out of the 'tree of life', which is planted inmidst of the female womb.

No one in any American Sunday school teach this lost meaning of the symbols taught in the Hebrew myth of Genesis (Greek: 'The way 'things' comes into life').

This Genesis myth is not of Hebrew origin, it is taken from the prolog of the Gilgamesh Epic, a myth written by the Sumerian people in ~2800 BCE, that's read: "After heaven and earth had been separated and mankind had been created, after Anucircum, Enlil and Ereskigal had taken possession of heaven, earth and the underworld; after Enki had set sail for the underworld and the sea ebbed and flowed in honor of its lord; on this day, a huluppu tree which had been planted on the banks of the Euphrates and nourished by its waters was uprooted by the south wind and carried away by the Euphrates. A goddess who was wandering among the banks siezed the swaying tree, and -- at the behest of Anu and Enlil -- brought it to Inanna's (Venus) garden in Uruk. Inanna tended the tree carefully and lovingly she hoped to have a throne and a bed made for herself from its wood. After ten years, the tree had matured. But in the meantime, she found to her dismay that her hopes could not be fulfilled because during that time a dragon had built its nest at the foot of the tree the Zu-bird was raising its young in the crown, and the demon Lilith had built her house in the middle. But Gilgamesh, who had heard of Inanna's plight, came to her rescue. He took his heavy shield killed the dragon with his heavy bronze axe, which weighed seven talents and seven minas. Then the Zu-bird flew into the mountains with its young, while Lilith, petrified with fear, tore down her house and fled into the wilderness."

Prior to this theme it is spoken in Genesis about the creation of the world, and also that story is not of Hebrew origin, it is adopted from the Indian Sanskrit Rig-Veda (HYMN CXXX. Creation): "THEN was not non-existent nor existent: there was no realm of air, no sky beyond it. What covered in, and where? and what gave shelter? Was water there, unfathomed depth of water?. Death was not then, nor was there aught immortal: no sign was there, the day's and night's divider. That One Thing, breathless, breathed by its own nature: apart from it was nothing whatsoever. Darkness there was: at first concealed in darknew this All was indiscriminated chaos. All that existed then was void and form less: by the great power of Warmth was born that Unit. Thereafter rose Desire in the beginning, Desire, the primal seed and germ of Spirit. Sages who searched with their heart's thought discovered the existent's kinship in the non-existent. Transversely was their severing line extended: what was above it then, and what below it?. There were begetters, there were mighty forces, free action here and energy up yonder. Who verily knows and who can here declare it, whence it was born and whence comes this creation?. TheGods are later than this world's production. Who knows then whence it first came into being?. He, the first origin of this creation, whether he formed it all or did not form it,. Whose eye controls this world in highest heaven, he verily knows it, or perhaps he knows not. ..."

Seems that there is more to learn as it is taught in Sunday schools.

Volker

Magus55

1) The Devil, or Satan was an Archangel ( Lucifer) who tried to rebell and overthrow God - so God created Hell for Lucifer and the "fallen" angels that followed him.

2) Where did you get the idea that angels don't have free will? They do. Lucifer used that free will and decided being God's servant wasn't good enough, he wanted God's authority so he attempted to overthrow God. He followed the cliche, it is better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven.

3) See # 2 - Lucifer committed the first sin of pride, by going against God's Virtue of Humility. Using his free will, lucifer decided not to be humble - and we call that pride, which is a sin because it goes against God.

4) Why is He held responsible? If you tell your children not to do something, and they go ahead and do it anyway - is it no the child's fault for disobeying? The parents clearly set boundaries, but the child didn't want to follow them. Does make the parents necessarily responsible unless they didn't follow up with punishment, or sat around and did nothing. I guess you could argue, that despite not having to be held accountable since creation disobeyed all on their own, God did accept responsibility for it by offering us a way to be saved, through Jesus Christ. Now, God in no way had to offer salvation, because creation disobeyed Him, but He did it out of mercy and love for His creation.

5) Cain's wife was probably one of his sisters. Incest didn't exist back then. Cain was the second generation of humanity, and as such - the bloodline was still extremely pure with no genetic defects or faults. Once time went on, and the bloodline became more drawn out and less pure, God outlawed sexual relations with family members ( I think in Levictus).

RED DAVE

I love it. But every time I go through this, I have the irresistable desire to say, "You guys have to be kidding. You don't really believe this shit, do you?"

Nice fantasy, but where in the bible do you find that?

When my wife dragged me into a fundie church a few years ago, the minister said that angels were not created to have free will. guess I was wrong.

Like Uncle Miltie said, "Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven" or anywhere else for that matter.

Oh, come on! If God created man with the potential for evil, he created evil. It's like creating a car that can go 150 miles per hour and then telling people not to drive that fast. They may be wrong to drive that fast, but the car's creator created the ability of the car to speed.

GOD CREATED EVIL. You can't get away from that.

[/QUOTE]5) Cain's wife was probably one of his sisters. Incest didn't exist back then. Cain was the second generation of humanity, and as such - the bloodline was still extremely pure with no genetic defects or faults. Once time went on, and the bloodline became more drawn out and less pure, God outlawed sexual relations with family members ( I think in Levictus).[/QUOTE]

Show me where is say that Cain amrried one of his sisters. That's a fantasy made up of nothing. There is no place in the bilbe that says that A&E had more children.

RED DAVE

Magus55

Red Dave, why do you bother asking these question when you don't want to hear the answer? What do you get out of ridiculing and mocking us?

winstonjen

Magus55, why do you bother mocking our responses when you can't answer the questions? What do you get out of it? Don't you know that a refusal to answer is an admission of defeat?

RED DAVE

This is an atheist board, Magus, and if i feel like mocking your [edited by moderator] faith, I'll do so. Do you feel the itch to repress?

You still haven't answered my questions. As winstonjes says, "Don't you know that a refusal to answer is an admission of defeat?"

Just because you or another xtian pens some [edited by moderator] rationalization designed to paper over the fallacies in your belief system wide enough to drive a truck through doesn't mean I have to accept them as a final or sufficent answer.

RED DAVE