Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Darth Dane · 08-21-2003, 10:54 AM

DD, why would I suffer for Steve (Jesus) when I could stop the suffering all together?

You have to choose it on your own to stop suffering. Stop it where you are.

It seems to me that you automatically assume that people are powerless.

No, but how many have picked up their cross as Jesus did?

Not because they can't, but because they won't. They are busy hoarding goods, getting rich, seeking fame and so on. Step on the little man. All the rich could do some push-ups for the poor, but they won't.. "they have to do it on their own right?"

DD - Love & Laughter

Starboy · 08-21-2003, 11:02 AM

DD, I have never understood how people could expect a moral standard based on suffering to create a peaceful and happy world. We do not have complete control of our circumstances. However that lack of control does not excuse us from doing what we can. In this case it is not picking up Steve�s cross but stopping the professor. If you want to view this as an analogy it would be to stop Christianity. Nothing good can come from an ethos based on suffering.

Starboy

Darth Dane · 08-21-2003, 11:11 AM

Yes, but the example with Steve is incomplete.

Jesus said "pick up your own cross"

Those who won't accept the donut, if they can't do the push-ups, are allowed to do the push-ups. But most just want the donut, without the work. Jesus is long dead, so the immediacy of the example with steve is not so visible in regards to Jesus

The more people that start doing the push-ups the faster all can have a donut, if all did their own push-ups. steve would only need to do 10, namely his own.

But there is no time-frame afai understand it.

DD - Love & Laughter

Starboy · 08-21-2003, 11:20 AM

DD, It appears you have missed my point entirely. An ethos based on enduring suffering is not suitable for a self-determination freedom loving people. It is better suited to the slave society from which it sprang. An ethos based on enduring suffering can at best allow people to tolerate it but leaves them powerless to stop it. Such an ethos is not for this day and age and belongs to those with the mindset of the first century.

I understand what you are trying to tell me, but I am afraid that my point is completely lost on you.

We don�t have to suffer to get donuts!

Starboy

BioBeing · 08-21-2003, 11:21 AM

Steve was the star pupil - he got the best grades, never skipped a class etc. And the Prof gave him a challenge he could perform.

What if the star pupil in the class had been a wimp like me? I couldn't do 200 push ups. Would the prof have given me the same challenge? No - because I couldn't do it.

God (according to the myth) let Jesus be sacrificed on the cross, because Jesus could do it. He got resurrected for f*cks sake. He knew he wasn't really going to die. He didn't die like you or I would have done. Where is the challenge in that?

The original is a pile of bollox, just like this analogy.

Darth Dane · 08-21-2003, 11:29 AM

DD, It appears you have missed my point entirely. An ethos based on enduring suffering is not suitable for a self-determination freedom loving people. It is better suited to the slave society from which it sprang. An ethos based on enduring suffering can at best allow people to tolerate it but leaves them powerless to stop it. Such an ethos is not for this day and age and belongs to those with the mindset of the first century.

So can we conclude that the way mainstream christianity is doesn't represent Christ?

It is not the way I understand God and Jesus Christ.

We don�t have to suffer to get donuts!

True, but that is also a part of Jesus' story. "Ask and you shall be given"

We are each given tasks according to our capability.

But we can get better at running a faster marathon...we just need to practice.....

DD - Love & Laughter

Starboy · 08-21-2003, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Darth Dane
DD, It appears you have missed my point entirely. An ethos based on enduring suffering is not suitable for a self-determination freedom loving people. It is better suited to the slave society from which it sprang. An ethos based on enduring suffering can at best allow people to tolerate it but leaves them powerless to stop it. Such an ethos is not for this day and age and belongs to those with the mindset of the first century.

So can we conclude that the way mainstream christianity is doesn't represent Christ?

It is not the way I understand God and Jesus Christ.

We don�t have to suffer to get donuts!

True, but that is also a part of Jesus' story. "Ask and you shall be given"

We are each given tasks according to our capability.

But we can get better at running a faster marathon...we just need to practice.....

DD - Love & Laughter

DD, I have been discussing some of the moral and ethical ideas as presented in the OP at the beginning of this thread. If you want to discuss another bible story and its implications start another thread and state your OP clearly. I might even post on it.

I do find it annoying that you inject ideas that have nothing to do with the OP or my comments regarding it. The OP was not about asking and receiving it was about suffering by proxy so that others could benefit. (A very sick idea.)

Starboy

scigirl · 08-21-2003, 11:47 AM

So - Jesus wants his followers to eat unhealthy food and get diabetes? Why didn't the story at least mention a bagel, or a piece of fruit?

scigirl

Darth Dane · 08-21-2003, 11:49 AM

Yes the idea is sick, I am saying that it can't be an example of what Jesus did.

And so the relevance is maintained in regards to the initial post wouldn't you agree?

DD - Love & Laughter

Starboy · 08-21-2003, 11:52 AM

Hey Scigirl, how ya been!

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08-21-2003, 10:54 AM	#41
Darth Dane Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Required Posts: 2,349	DD, why would I suffer for Steve (Jesus) when I could stop the suffering all together? You have to choose it on your own to stop suffering. Stop it where you are. It seems to me that you automatically assume that people are powerless. No, but how many have picked up their cross as Jesus did? Not because they can't, but because they won't. They are busy hoarding goods, getting rich, seeking fame and so on. Step on the little man. All the rich could do some push-ups for the poor, but they won't.. "they have to do it on their own right?" DD - Love & Laughter

08-21-2003, 11:02 AM	#42
Starboy Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tallahassee, FL Reality Adventurer Posts: 5,276	DD, I have never understood how people could expect a moral standard based on suffering to create a peaceful and happy world. We do not have complete control of our circumstances. However that lack of control does not excuse us from doing what we can. In this case it is not picking up Steve�s cross but stopping the professor. If you want to view this as an analogy it would be to stop Christianity. Nothing good can come from an ethos based on suffering. Starboy

08-21-2003, 11:11 AM	#43
Darth Dane Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Required Posts: 2,349	Yes, but the example with Steve is incomplete. Jesus said "pick up your own cross" Those who won't accept the donut, if they can't do the push-ups, are allowed to do the push-ups. But most just want the donut, without the work. Jesus is long dead, so the immediacy of the example with steve is not so visible in regards to Jesus The more people that start doing the push-ups the faster all can have a donut, if all did their own push-ups. steve would only need to do 10, namely his own. But there is no time-frame afai understand it. DD - Love & Laughter

08-21-2003, 11:20 AM	#44
Starboy Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tallahassee, FL Reality Adventurer Posts: 5,276	DD, It appears you have missed my point entirely. An ethos based on enduring suffering is not suitable for a self-determination freedom loving people. It is better suited to the slave society from which it sprang. An ethos based on enduring suffering can at best allow people to tolerate it but leaves them powerless to stop it. Such an ethos is not for this day and age and belongs to those with the mindset of the first century. I understand what you are trying to tell me, but I am afraid that my point is completely lost on you. We don�t have to suffer to get donuts! Starboy

08-21-2003, 11:21 AM	#45
BioBeing Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 6,004	Steve was the star pupil - he got the best grades, never skipped a class etc. And the Prof gave him a challenge he could perform. What if the star pupil in the class had been a wimp like me? I couldn't do 200 push ups. Would the prof have given me the same challenge? No - because I couldn't do it. God (according to the myth) let Jesus be sacrificed on the cross, because Jesus could do it. He got resurrected for f*cks sake. He knew he wasn't really going to die. He didn't die like you or I would have done. Where is the challenge in that? The original is a pile of bollox, just like this analogy.

08-21-2003, 11:29 AM	#46
Darth Dane Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Required Posts: 2,349	DD, It appears you have missed my point entirely. An ethos based on enduring suffering is not suitable for a self-determination freedom loving people. It is better suited to the slave society from which it sprang. An ethos based on enduring suffering can at best allow people to tolerate it but leaves them powerless to stop it. Such an ethos is not for this day and age and belongs to those with the mindset of the first century. So can we conclude that the way mainstream christianity is doesn't represent Christ? It is not the way I understand God and Jesus Christ. We don�t have to suffer to get donuts! True, but that is also a part of Jesus' story. "Ask and you shall be given" We are each given tasks according to our capability. But we can get better at running a faster marathon...we just need to practice..... DD - Love & Laughter

08-21-2003, 11:47 AM	#48
scigirl Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Seattle Posts: 4,261	So - Jesus wants his followers to eat unhealthy food and get diabetes? Why didn't the story at least mention a bagel, or a piece of fruit? scigirl

08-21-2003, 11:49 AM	#49
Darth Dane Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Required Posts: 2,349	Yes the idea is sick, I am saying that it can't be an example of what Jesus did. And so the relevance is maintained in regards to the initial post wouldn't you agree? DD - Love & Laughter

08-21-2003, 11:52 AM	#50
Starboy Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tallahassee, FL Reality Adventurer Posts: 5,276	Hey Scigirl, how ya been!

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