Freethought & Rationalism Archive

missus_gumby · 12-11-2002, 03:17 PM

Excuse my ignorance, but are there naturally occurring substances that, when taken orally in liquid form, induce a miscarriage?

Bible Humper · 12-11-2002, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Excuse my ignorance, but are there naturally occurring substances that, when taken orally in liquid form, induce a miscarriage?

This might be close to the blind leading the blind, but here goes..

I heard references to this very thing in accounts of the Saxon invasion of Britain. Raped women would drink a concoction that was meant to induce miscarriage.

The newly established(the first time) Xians were opposed to it, IIRC, for the usual reasons.

They thought that herbalism was some kind of magic.

[ December 11, 2002: Message edited by: Bible Humper ]

winstonjen · 12-11-2002, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by missus_gumby:
Excuse my ignorance, but are there naturally occurring substances that, when taken orally in liquid form, induce a miscarriage?

There are some drugs that are used to treat kidney stones, but they are also an effective drug that induces abortions. John Ashcroft may try to ban those next, and leave all the LIVING people with kidney stones to suffer and die in pain, just because they MAY be used as a means of abortion.

I know this isn't exactly on with your point, Martin, but I thought that it could be a logical extension.

TerryTryon · 12-11-2002, 04:10 PM

All very interesting, but my reason for bringing up this odious bit of trivia is that I wonder why it is not discussed more. I was exposed to it when I was sixteen years old, and thought at the time that it was barbaric in the extreme. Yet as a Christian for many years thereafter, I never heard any apologetics for it. And as atheist for many more years, I've never seen it discussed in atheist literature either. Yet, the sheer immorality of this treatment flies in the face of all decency.

1. There is no evidence at all against the woman. In fact, baseless suspicion is the only reason given to perform the ceremony.

2. The husband is given authority to demand the ceremony and total immunity from reprecussions that may befall the woman as a result of his paranoia.

3. The woman is totally degraded, made to drink water that has been contaminated with dirt, ink, and whatever chemical made the water bitter. She is made to sit on a dirt floor while the priest fingers her hair. She is made to verbally consent to the treatment, no matter how innocent or guilty she may be.

4. Writing a curse on something and then washing it into a liquid with the idea that the written words have a force even as diluted ink, and the throwing around of grain meal is pure shamanism. (Or early homeopathy.)

If anybody needed a reason to reject the bible, this text reveals a level of evil, superstitious bigotry that is impossible to explain away. I understand why christians and jews don't want to discuss it, but why is this topic now languishing in the rants and raves "garbage" category of an atheist bulletin board? Why don't atheists want to talk about it? Are they actually afraid to take a move and call "checkmate"?

Bible Humper · 12-11-2002, 04:28 PM

Quote:

If anybody needed a reason to reject the bible, this text reveals a level of evil, superstitious bigotry that is impossible to explain away. I understand why christians and jews don't want to discuss it, but why is this topic now languishing in the rants and raves "garbage" category of an atheist bulletin board? Why don't atheists want to talk about it? Are they actually afraid to take a move and call "checkmate"?

I, for one, have now added it to my repertoire.

Seriously though, anyone who wants to discredit the Bible has an embarrassment of riches to choose from. We all have our favourites.

It has little effect on Christians, though, because their beliefs are based on emotions rather than reason. Take this to a Christian board, you'll be surprised to find that not a single one of them will find it to be at all significant.

Toto · 12-11-2002, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TerryTryon:
. . . why is this topic now languishing in the rants and raves "garbage" category of an atheist bulletin board? . . .

Because you posted it here? Maybe a mod could transfer it to BC&A and see if any of our "serious" theists have an answer.

frostymama · 12-11-2002, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by missus_gumby:
Excuse my ignorance, but are there naturally occurring substances that, when taken orally in liquid form, induce a miscarriage?

Yes. When I was in college one of my good friends had an herbal abortion. She took a combination of herbs (had cohosh in it I believe) very early in the pregnancy and it induced a miscarriage. I didn't watch her take it so I am not sure if she drank it in a tea or took it in some other form. I have since heard that herbal abortions aren't really reliable though.

-edit 'cause I can't spell

[ December 11, 2002: Message edited by: frostymama ]

lunachick · 12-11-2002, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by missus_gumby:
Excuse my ignorance, but are there naturally occurring substances that, when taken orally in liquid form, induce a miscarriage?

Pennyroyal is one.

Happy Wonderer · 12-11-2002, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by missus_gumby:
Excuse my ignorance, but are there naturally occurring substances that, when taken orally in liquid form, induce a miscarriage?

You piqued my interest, so I spent a bit of time looking. Many herbs were known to cause abortion, although I'm not sure which ones were common in Palestine. Hyssop would do the trick, although apparently what we call Hyssop didn't exist in the Middle East. <a href="http://www.rosettastoneinc.com/herbs-foods/herbs.html" target="_blank">hyssop</a>

Quote:

HERB (2) - HYSSOP, RUE AND TANSY
HYSSOP - Hyssopus officinalis
Hyssop is derived from the Greek word meaning "Holy Herb".
It is not known if the Hyssop of the Bible is this particular herb, since the name was given to several different plants in ancient times. Hyssop is one of the bitter herbs ritually eaten at the Jewish Passover Feast. Traditionally hyssop was strewn on the floors of courts, churches and infirmaries to prevent the spread of infectious diseases. Elderly women in Europe pressed hyssop flowers in their psalm books, hoping that the strong smell would keep them awake, as well as protecting them from germs. (I will write another herb, which is thought to be the Hyssop of the Bible in a future vignette).

Bees and butterflies are greatly attracted to hyssop flowers and if grown near cabbages, it is said to lure away whiteflies.

Medicinally hyssop was used to treat coughs and respiratory complaints. Extremely large doses were given to caused abortion.

Quote:

Herbs that induce menstruation (and thus cause abortion) are angelica, birthroot, black cohosh, blue cohosh, motherwort, pennyroyal leaf, parsley and yarrow. They are also not safe to induce abortion, as they must be taken in toxic amounts that could kill the mother. Taken in smaller amounts that are safe for the mother, they may cause birth defects.

<a href="http://maranao.com/health/h1-drugsmedicines.htm" target="_blank">Another one</a>

HW

Edited to add -- parsley?

[ December 11, 2002: Message edited by: Happy Wonderer ]

Happy Wonderer · 12-11-2002, 05:19 PM

Good lord, this <a href="http://www.bidstrup.com/abortion.htm" target="_blank">web page</a> claims that "parsley, sage, rosmary & thyme" was supposed to be a herbal abortion formula. (And I have found other sites that say parsley, sage, and rosmary should be avoided by pregnant women.) Kind of gives a new twist to that old folk song...

HW

So what can you eat if you are pregnant?

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12-11-2002, 03:17 PM	#11
missus_gumby Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: UK Posts: 1,898	Excuse my ignorance, but are there naturally occurring substances that, when taken orally in liquid form, induce a miscarriage?

12-11-2002, 04:10 PM	#14
TerryTryon Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Glendale, Arizona, USA Posts: 184	All very interesting, but my reason for bringing up this odious bit of trivia is that I wonder why it is not discussed more. I was exposed to it when I was sixteen years old, and thought at the time that it was barbaric in the extreme. Yet as a Christian for many years thereafter, I never heard any apologetics for it. And as atheist for many more years, I've never seen it discussed in atheist literature either. Yet, the sheer immorality of this treatment flies in the face of all decency. 1. There is no evidence at all against the woman. In fact, baseless suspicion is the only reason given to perform the ceremony. 2. The husband is given authority to demand the ceremony and total immunity from reprecussions that may befall the woman as a result of his paranoia. 3. The woman is totally degraded, made to drink water that has been contaminated with dirt, ink, and whatever chemical made the water bitter. She is made to sit on a dirt floor while the priest fingers her hair. She is made to verbally consent to the treatment, no matter how innocent or guilty she may be. 4. Writing a curse on something and then washing it into a liquid with the idea that the written words have a force even as diluted ink, and the throwing around of grain meal is pure shamanism. (Or early homeopathy.) If anybody needed a reason to reject the bible, this text reveals a level of evil, superstitious bigotry that is impossible to explain away. I understand why christians and jews don't want to discuss it, but why is this topic now languishing in the rants and raves "garbage" category of an atheist bulletin board? Why don't atheists want to talk about it? Are they actually afraid to take a move and call "checkmate"?

12-11-2002, 05:19 PM	#20
Happy Wonderer Veteran Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Washington, the least religious state Posts: 5,334	Good lord, this <a href="http://www.bidstrup.com/abortion.htm" target="_blank">web page</a> claims that "parsley, sage, rosmary & thyme" was supposed to be a herbal abortion formula. (And I have found other sites that say parsley, sage, and rosmary should be avoided by pregnant women.) Kind of gives a new twist to that old folk song... HW So what can you eat if you are pregnant?

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