WJ

Since I'm not a theist proper, I would not really know the proper term, but more than likely it relates to the free gift of Grace (or some refer to it as 'sweet Jesus peace). Philosophically and/or perhaps from a humanist view its a bit broader; revelation, transendentalism, phenomenology, postmodernism and so forth. Psychologically, more of a wholeness as a result of an implicit understanding of circumstantial contradicton, paradox, irony, finitude, temporality, etc. as unavoidable in one's life or Being. Of course, in terms of verification, these experiences, feelings or perspectives are subjective in nature or would involve some (empirical)observation, which this forum obviously doesn't lend itself to...

...make sense?

[ July 18, 2002: Message edited by: WJ ]</p>

Ryanfire

If this forum leads itself into subjectivity.
Religion is no doubtedly the same, although most theists claim it as objective. This is why atheists have such a problem with theists, and turn away from theism even if they were once a theist.

WJ

Ryan!

How do view the distinctions between objective and subjective truth?

brighid

Danger RyanFire, Danger … do not attempt to debate objective and subjective truth with WJ – it will end in a frustrating stalemate as so many of us have learned before … Danger!

B

Mad Kally

Topic: So what does religion offer?

Here's what the xian religion offered me:

1) A horrible fear of hell when I was a young child. My mom would place my hands over my abdomen and say "This is where Jesus wants your hands to be." WTF? I would lay there all night, every night, trying to keep my hands exactly where she said they should be. I was almost an adult before I realized how sick that was!

2) I was told I was a sinner from the day I was born. (original sin)

3) God was up there somewhere in the sky and he was reading my mind and watching every move I made. Of course, every innocent childish thing I did would send me straight to hell and I knew it. (think thought patrol)

4) Fear of freedom of speech. I was told to NEVER use the word "fool" or I would surely go to hell. I could never say something innocent like "I'll bet I can run faster than you." That was a sin too. I could never figure out why, but what the hell, my parents were always right.

5) Fear of thinking and asking questions. When ever I asked the simplest of questions such as "Who did Cain marry?" I was told to be quiet and never ask questions or think too much. The devil was trying to pry his way into my mind.

6) Believing that every sin was equally evil. I would go to hell for telling a little white lie just the same as if I went to the nearest supermarket and opened fire with an automatic weapon. There's no difference in the eyes of the lord.

7) It allowed my mother to stand by and watch me and my brother be beaten and abused. She wouldn't dare step in because the bible says she is not to ursurp authority over a man. She seemed to enjoy watching it with a smug smile on her face.

8) My mom and her friends always laying hands on me to rebuke the devil out of me. They would speak in tongues and scream "I rebuke thee Satan, get out of her!"

9) My father sent me away and I had to stay in a shelter for teens because they were so convinced I was demon possesssed. Mom did nothing. I had never committed a crime. (except ask questions and doubt)

10) Even as an adult having mommy dearest scream in my face that my knees will bow on judgment day! I will burn in hell for all eternity. Then she would say "Do you KNOW how long eternity is?" Oh her dying day she will be convinced I'm possesssed. Pathetic old woman.

11) I took all the guilt and shame on myself. I was a bad, bad child and knew that god hated me. Where was god when I begged him to make it stop?

12) Watching in horror my mother sit in a chair and smile smugly on the morning of September 11, 2001, and say "Well, I have MY place in heaven!" She didn't care then and she has never cared. She is a righteous woman and a True Christian.

Coming to the II, I found a drop of reason in a pool of confusion. I've lost all my fear, shame and guilt. I was mad as hell until I realized I don't have to take it anymore. (I still have plenty of anger) Two young lives destroyed by a superstitious cult. A dangerous myth.

I'm so happy to be free of that horrid nonsense.
No, I do not hate god. He doesn't exist! YAY..

Mad Kally

WJ

Good point. Don't be afraid grashopper! God won't bite you (well maybe just a little)!

...I'm only kidding

EDIT: this post was intended for B.

[ July 18, 2002: Message edited by: WJ ]</p>

Mad Kally

WJ,
I really hope you weren't referring to my post.

WJ

Kelly!

No, we crossed. Sorry to hear such abuses and 'psychological' impacts...thus my point about religion. There again, there is no thing here that represents perfection except...

brighid

Aren't Shaolin Monks atheists?

No, definitely fear the God of the Bible! He tells you exactly what will happen to you and if biting were the worst of it ... well, it would be a different story.

Danger! danger!

B

WJ

B!

As many atheists would say, it's all psychological anyway!