Rational BAC

I like having Magus on this forum.

And I think he only rarely loses his temper. Although we are on opposite ends of the Christian spectrum, he does make me think about what I believe in and what I don't and why. Who knows?, he may actually convert me into a Fundie someday-------(although I find that as unlikely as you all converting me into an atheist.)


I think Magus also challenges the non-theists on this forum to better define their philosophy (started to write belief system, but decided better not get into that one).

Which reminds me------how do atheists like to have their thinking described? I would really not like to offend if not necessary. Does "philosophy" or metaphysics work OK?

Or is there some other term you would like used? Just tell me and I will use it.

I think people should be called what they want to be called and their thinking described in terms they agree with. Just out of politeness if nothing else. Being polite does not stop anyone from discussing the issues of any debate.

Opera Nut

RatBAC, I'm glad you're not a fundy. Some would fault you for being a cherry-picking Christian, but the only way to get any rational non-contradictory scripture out of the bible is to throw out vast quantities of evil, mean, judgmental stuff and stick with stuff like

The Sermon on the Mount,

Whatsoever things are true,.......Think on these things,

Faith hope, and charity: The greatest of these is Love--I Corinthians 13,

Do Justice, Love Mercy and Walk Humbly with thy God (I've seen that one on the wall at the front of a synagogue in Galveston),

Let justice flow like waters and rigtheousness like a mighty stream. (Thsi one is on a black granite water wall at the Southern Poverty Law Center memorial to the victims of racial violence)

The Heavens are telling the glory of God

Let us now praise famous men,

Leviticus: I set before you Life and Death; choose life so that thy and thy seed may live (used by Carl Sagan in the TV series "Cosmos");

They shall beat their swords into plowshares...

Many of the Psalms and Proverbs.

You know this stuff far better than I do.
Besides, if you extract the good kind stuff you would not drive yourself nuts trying to believe in a kind merciful God and a psychotic, capricious, mass-murdering God at the same time.

As far as atheist/agnostic labels I won't speak for anyone else. Some people like humanist, secular humanist, even Unitarian Universalist for those who identify with that denomination. Unitarian=One God; Universalism=Universal salvation for everyone, not just the Elect.

I would say that secular humanism is not hoping for a heaven in the next world, but working in the here and now to help other people and animals, to relieve suffering, feed the hungry, heal the sick, help bring justice into the world, and all that activist stuff.

Speaking for skeptics: Since we have NO actual confirmation that there is an afterlife or a heaven, and all we are sure about is that we are here and now, that we should be working to relieve suffering around us, not praying for a Heaven that we don't know exists. Secular humanism believes in the ability of people to better themselves and to help others.

Quote from famous atheist "Hands that help are far better than lips that Pray". Robert G. Ingersoll.

There are many secular Jews who feel that humanism is a part of their philosophy.

From a description of Jews Without Judaism, Conversations with an Unconventional Rabbi, by Daniel Friedman:

QUOTE: Friedman consistently advocates a secular approach, denying the existence of an omnipotent God. The autonomous individual, rather than God, is foremost in his view. He insists that "religion plays virtually no part in the lives of most American Jews," even claiming that "Judaism, the religion, came to an end some two hundred years ago." Friedman notes that Jewish culture, history, traditions and holidays should be studied and appreciated from a naturalistic perspective. Although few Jews will agree with Friedman's opinions, he succeeds in clearly and persuasively presenting the attitudes of Jewish humanism. UNQUOTE

Secular humanism, or humanism, is an outgrowth of the Enlightment which happened in Europe int he 1700s. The inalienable rights of the individual human to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness as embodied in the American Declaration of Independence are what our system is based on.

Before humanism came along, you stayed in the class you were born into. If you were a slave, you stayed there. Kings and queens ruled by Divine Right -- God had given them their power over the people.

So the rights of the individual person, the person being the societal unit and not the divine right of kings to control the underlings was quite radical.

Ben Franklin sailed to London when he was quite young and sat in the coffeehouses where these ideas (from John Locke, Jean Jacques Rousseau, Adam Smith, etc.) were hotly debated. He came back to America very stimulated and the Founding Fathers used them in the Declaration of Independence.

(sorry for the history lesson but I saw the stuff about Jefferson and Franklin yesterday on Public Television. They were running all of the Ken Burns series about the revolutionary war times.)

yguy

When did I cast any aspersions on atheists?

You have no idea what the hell you're talking about. I came to this board locked and loaded, reasonably expecting that some here would hold me in contempt - and I haven't been disappointed. Never once have I blamed anyone else here for any emotional outbursts I may have had...but you are more than welcome to search my posts in a vain attempt to prove otherwise.

You don't read very well, do you?

I have answered it. If you find the answer unsatisfactory, that's your problem.

Speaking for myself, you can only expect me to get more offensive to people like you - so perhaps you'd better put me on ignore. Now.

When have I ever said things are awful here?

If any of you guys (you know who you are) think your head games have the slightest effect on me, you are laboring under a delusion which will enable me to affect you through your very desire to affect me.

//riot of disorder::

Magus: You're not Jewish. You worship Jesus. Don't act like it if your not, {flame deleted} peer pressure ever known to man. Take my advice, because I was born Jewish.

//riot of disorder::

Oh, and JESUS WASN'T THE MESSIAH. HE WAS SUPPOSED TO KILL THE ROMANS.

Kosh

I would have to agree. Based on the repeated demonstration of his logic and science, he is most definitely thinking like a 1st century Jew.

Wayne P

I wrote:

yguy wrote back:

Thanks for making one of my points for me. You came in looking for trouble, ie with a chip on your shoulder.

I'm certainly happy that you haven't been disappointed in your stay here.

Wayne P

Hi Rational BAC,

In spite of what some people have assumed, I really have come here to find out what other members think and what they believe in. Our beliefs, hopes and ideas are such important parts of our lives that we should be happy to discuss them with others. Not only for the pure pleasure of associating with our fellow man/woman but, especially, in the hope of finding something new and worthwhile in other's ideas. The polite and decent exchange of ideas is what makes us all better people. It also makes it so much easier for us all to get along.

As to whether you call it philosophy, religion or metaphysic, it really doesn't matter to me, I think they are all about the same.

Also I don't care what one calls oneself as long as he is honest about. Don't tell everyone you are one thing when in reality you are something else. That's not being honest to yourself or others.

We can only know people on this forum by what they say, if they are not being honest with what they tell you, then you can't form an honest and truthfull picture of them. You won't know with certainty whether you should follow their judgement in anything, let alone something as important as your eternal soul.

We are all individuals, we all have different motives, desires and needs, these all need to be respected. To say "All atheists are this" or "All Christians are that" or "All Theists are something else" is not only untrue but conterproductive. Am I wrong but does not Christianity teach that we shall all be judged on our own merits?

Anyways, thanks for asking the question and thanks for listening to my ramble.

//riot of disorder::

Magus wouldn't last one second at J-Thunder. Mayhem King would tear his straw-man arguments to shreds.

EstherRose

And if we give you answers, you reject them because they don’t fit “your” criteria of an acceptable answer. Instead of stating it and moving the debate on, many members here ridicule, harass and abuse the Christians.

I can’t vouch for others, but when asked an opinion or question, I answer based on my beliefs. You answer based on your belief system which is “logic”. I’ve never been trained in formal debate or the theories of logic so I can’t form my answers to meet your expectations.

Your opinion, not mine.

If I’m made aware of questions, I will try to answer them honestly. If a thread I’ve been posting on gets too abusive or pointless because of the bickering and inane comments, I won’t bother returning to the thread. Perhaps you are mistaking a lack of ability to answer with just plain not knowing there is a question there.

If you were to ask me questions, I would try to answer them to the best of my abilities. Whether any of that meets with your approval is another matter entirely. I try to answer honestly, with no attempt to try to persuade anyone to my way of thinking. Can you say the same for yourself? Do you feel you have to “win” the argument no matter what?



By the same token, don’t discount everything just because you heard it, were taught it, read it, or it was passed down by tradition.

I too have applied that to my life. I test everything. It just so happens that we have found different things to be true.