themistocles

Well if we agree that ideologies are necessarily lacking in rationally based philosophies or justification or what-have-you, then, no, I'd argue that religions generally are a type of ideology and not categorically seperate. ("invisible hand" example I would argue is a tad superficial, btw)

Nameless

I don't think most atheists are communists. However, most communists are probably atheist, hence the confusion.

BTW, I have no evidence to back this up, but most communists I have personally known were also atheists. Most atheists I have known were not communists, although their political views were commonly left of center.

ieyeasu

Moderate Regulation Libertarian Atheist here--Do crack, shoot yourself in the head with your fully automatic weapon, and will your belongings to whomever you want. Just don't land on my doorstep.

I think that Communism isn't meant as a religion, but due to its inflammatory content, some of its adherents take it as one. I could say the same of atheism. The idea itself is an idea; some of its proponents become priests and prostelyzers.

Starboy

I think comparing ideology to religion misses the point. As I see it, what makes something a religion is accepting its beliefs as the absolute truth. As such the religious exist in all sorts of unexpected places and there are many labeled as religious that by my definition would not qualify. However once you start holding knowledge tentatively and require it to fit all the facts and to explain what you observe around you, your religion falls by the wayside, including both communism and Christianity. In regards to comparing atheists to communists, it is important to understand that the only thing you can say about an atheist is that they lack theism.

Starboy

Vorkosigan

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ThinkDifferent
Wasn't it fantastically popular in almost half the globe sometime ago?

Popular? If Communism was so popular, why are all Communist states police states? If popularity is the measure of success, isn't Michael Jordan the greatest human who ever lived?

Did they not successfully take on the church & religion in countries like the former USSR & China ?

Atheism doesn't require a pro-active policy of crushing religion. Atheism is just lacking a belief in gods. Some religions don't have gods, hence are atheistic. I may enjoy confrontation, but I don't think that confrontation is a measure of success.

I don't see another example of non-believers doing so well. Isn't it true that everywhere politicians and religious heads complemented each other in keeping each other prosperous while keeping the majority oppressed??

True in Communist states too.

I would have to answer, given that Communists suppressed atheists who were not Communist, I can only conclude that Communism was a failure as far as atheism is concerned.

Vorkosigan

Wiploc

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vorkosigan
[B]I don't know that they were non-believers. Didn't they believe in History as a force, as something guided, headed for a goal?
crc

Celsus

That was Hegel, whom Marx borrowed heavily from.

sullster

The communists have done great harm to atheism and thus have given the theists a great argument against atheism. The repressive criminal regimes which were communist are used by theists as an example of what atheism will lead to.

The vast majority of atheists do not seek the creation of a repressive police-state which would suppress religion. They don't believe and that is it. If anything, it is theists and theism which can lead to repression. This is always overlooked by theists, while they trash atheists.

I see Marxism/Communism as being a religious system. It is founded on metaphysical patterns. I do not believe in any religious systems and that includes the fantasy world of Marx.

anonymite

Hmmm... I think the specific population of China plays a huge role in this:

Purely off memory, I think the population estimates suggested there are about 900 million non-religious people in the world and an additional 250 million atheists, who I guess are classified seperately. It just so happens that China has a sixth of the world's population. The info I'm getting from the web is sketchy, but I figure 600 million is a decent estimate of the non-religious or atheist population of china, which, if it were the case, would comprise the majority of non-religious or atheist people.

Again these are all guesses- Could someone produce some relevant data on this?

Vorkosigan

We had a long discussion on this two years ago. The Chinese gov't has released various contradictory estimates on religious belief. A few years ago they said that more than 70% of the population follows traditional religious practice -- Chinese folk religion -- and thus would be theists. You can check the State Department's Human Rights section for China and look up religion. Basically, according to the 2000 figures, there are more people who practice some religious belief in China than in the US, proportionately.

Here's the thread, the links are buried in it. It went from Shroud of Turin to Layman accusing atheism of creating adherents by force, a claim that was quickly disposed of, but a lot of fascinating information was turned up. The China stuff starts on page 4, from the State Department website:

"According to an official government white paper, there are over 200 million religious adherents, representing a great variety of beliefs and practices. Official figures from late 1997 indicate that there are at least 3,000 religious organizations, 300,000 clergy, and 74 religious schools and colleges. There are also more than 85,000 approved venues for religious activities. Most religious adherents profess Eastern faiths, but tens of millions adhere to Christianity. According to estimates, 75 percent of the population practices some form of traditional folk religion (worship of local gods, heroes, and ancestors). Approximately 8 percent of the population are Buddhist, approximately 1.4 percent are Muslim, an estimated 0.4 percent belong to the official Catholic Church, an estimated 0.4 to 0.8 percent belong to the unofficial Vatican-affiliated Catholic Church, an estimated 0.08 percent to 1.2 percent are registered Protestants, and perhaps 2.4 to 6.5 percent worship in house churches that are independent of government control. There are no available estimates of the number of Taoists. However, according to a 1997 government publication, there are over 10,000 Taoist monks and nuns and over 1,000 Taoist temples."

Vorkosigan