Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Ultron · 02-12-2003, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Melkor
As a side note, if flag defacement WERE so clearly NOT protected speech, why have some bothered to go through the rather arduous and likely unsuccessful process of attempting to amend the actual Constitution itself to effectively outlaw it?

Like what, specifically?

Quote:

Originally posted by Melkor
Perhaps because it is not so clear, and perhaps because the only way to Constitutionally remove a right is to make it specifically so, as part of the Constitution?

True, it's not easy to amend the Constitution. But it's been done nearly 30 times so far. Not impossible.

Ultron · 02-12-2003, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Grad Student Humanist
The fact that you think free expression is not protected by the 1st Amendment reveals only your ignorance of the Constitution.

Please, no personal attacks.

Quote:

Originally posted by Grad Student Humanist
Where in the Constitution is the right to smoke cigarettes? How about the right to sky-dive? How about the right to eat cheeseburgers? And what about the right to participate in an online forum?

So you agree with me those are not Constitutionally-protected rights? That's different from a freedom.

Quote:

Originally posted by Grad Student Humanist
According to your logic we don't have the "right" to do any of these things since they aren't in the Constitution.

Exactly. Those are not Constitutionally-protected rights. That doesn't mean you are not free to do those things.

Melkor · 02-12-2003, 10:06 AM

So by Ultron's logic, if I were even to just walk around in a public place with a photo of GW Bush with a big red "X" over it, I don't necessarily have a right to do that, since it isn't verbal or written "speech", and nothing in the Constitution specifically protects non-verbal/written forms of expression?

Or, for that matter, it wouldn't be unconstitutional for the Federal Government to outlaw such an activity and send people to prison for it?

Lol. Somebody give this guy a cigar... he's hilarious!

Melkor · 02-12-2003, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ultron
True, it's not easy to amend the Constitution. But it's been done nearly 30 times so far. Not impossible.

You missed my point. Why bother amending the Constitution to specifically ban defacing the flag if we never had the right to do so in the first place, according to your arguments?

Ut · 02-12-2003, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ultron
Where in the definition of speech does the word "image" appear?

Imagery is clearly not speech.

I don't know. Maybe you should ask the Legal Information Institute from Cornell Law School. From this page on the First Amendment:

Quote:

The right to free speech includes other mediums of expression that communicates a message.

seanie · 02-12-2003, 10:14 AM

I think his point is that you may well have the freedom to burn a flag but it's not a right until it's specifically in the constitution.

Same with eating cheeseburgers.

Melkor · 02-12-2003, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ultron
Where in the definition of speech does the word "image" appear?

Imagery is clearly not speech.

I can only presume that you are ignorant of the legal definition of "speech" then. Legal definitions of terms are not always 100% identical to Webster's, you know. Right?

EDIT, d'oh, got beat to it by Ut. Way to whip out the legal defititions!

Jacey · 02-12-2003, 10:16 AM

I've been in the Marines for 6+ years and used to consider it treason to burn the flag.

Now that I'm a more enlightened person, I've realized I just don't care. I don't even think we have a very interesting looking flag. Burn it if you want, it's your own money you're wasting.

I find it troubling that so many people are up in arms about flag burning, but don't care about civil liberties being pissed on more and more each day.

Melkor · 02-12-2003, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by seanie
I think his point is that you may well have the freedom to burn a flag but it's not a right until it's specifically in the constitution.

Not according to the Ninth Amendment....

seanie · 02-12-2003, 10:17 AM

I wasn't concurring.

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02-12-2003, 10:06 AM	#73
Melkor Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: The Void Posts: 396	So by Ultron's logic, if I were even to just walk around in a public place with a photo of GW Bush with a big red "X" over it, I don't necessarily have a right to do that, since it isn't verbal or written "speech", and nothing in the Constitution specifically protects non-verbal/written forms of expression? Or, for that matter, it wouldn't be unconstitutional for the Federal Government to outlaw such an activity and send people to prison for it? Lol. Somebody give this guy a cigar... he's hilarious!

02-12-2003, 10:14 AM	#76
seanie Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Edinburgh. Scotland Posts: 2,532	I think his point is that you may well have the freedom to burn a flag but it's not a right until it's specifically in the constitution. Same with eating cheeseburgers.

02-12-2003, 10:16 AM	#78
Jacey Banned Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: the gulag Posts: 3,043	I've been in the Marines for 6+ years and used to consider it treason to burn the flag. Now that I'm a more enlightened person, I've realized I just don't care. I don't even think we have a very interesting looking flag. Burn it if you want, it's your own money you're wasting. I find it troubling that so many people are up in arms about flag burning, but don't care about civil liberties being pissed on more and more each day.

02-12-2003, 10:17 AM	#80
seanie Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Edinburgh. Scotland Posts: 2,532	I wasn't concurring.

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