Charlie

Cool. Like your thoughts. And thanks, I'll go ahead and speak my mind.. just remember it is not my intent to show any disrespect.
When you talk about experiences that match expectations of what God is and does AND experiences that backs your beliefs? Are you talking about what I call a coincidence? Would you be willing to share an example?

Also, when you say "--more because that is how they were taught that the world actually *is* the way that their belief states.." Do you see this as being, what I would call, "indoctrinated" as a child? And then having experiences of coincidence that you would see as perhaps a miracle to support your belief? For example I bet humans could be convinced, not just as children but for their entire life, that Santa Claus really exists. Starting with childhood and as long as they were convinced that everyone in their community/group still believed in Santa and as long as the prerequisites continued, ie. presents from Santa and all the charades continue... And, of course even the occasional santa atheist would not be able to convince the Santa believer that Santa Claus does not exist.

(Another also..) when you say, "All humans do this, theists simply have a supernatural element in their worldview." I don't do this. Being an atheist, I have no belief and therefore I have nothing to back up or to support with experiences. This allows me to see coincidences for what they are. Please let me know if I misinterpreted?


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Well, I don't think that atheists are illogical or irrational--most of the time! My husband's atheism sounds very similar to yours--as he was raised by what he deems "secular Christians". He was baptized, but not much else. The two of us do not have similar experiences in belief in any way.[/B][/QUOTE]

Wow! Both you and your hubbie must be patient people. My wife was raised Catholic (her parents are deep into their beliefs) however she is somewhat on the fence. She agrees with a lot of nonbelief. I would lable her agnostic. I would have a very hard time having a relationship with a religious believer. I guess I need to practice more on my openmindedness..


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I think that an interesting topic that you might want to add to "how" and "why" is "what". In other words, what do people believe, and what role does it play in their societies. What does their deity do? I would bet that there are strong commonalities even across cultures, which would probably lead you to why--or at least the why of the past. Of course, if you find that the why of the past isn't relevant to today, then you're left with why the belief continues. I write like there is a single why reason for everything! ha.[/b][/quote]

Good point. That would also be very interesting! I think it would be a very large endeavor. I can see where you, a believer, would associate any commonalities as showing support to belief.. believing that it must mean something if similar beliefs are all around the world, sort of like strength in numbers (however just because many people believe something doesn't make it true). As a nonbeliever, this once again is just the power of belief. Humans want to believe and will take what ever info they can get that fits their world and use it to support their belief. We see what we want to. An example is how so many people, from around the world, who have claimed to see aliens describe very similar space ships and similar looking aliens (skinny, big eyes, slender arms legs, long fingers...) People are exposed to what an alien/space ship is expected to look like via movies, news papers, the media... and they incorporate this info into their belief/experience of what they saw to further support their belief in aliens. Regarding religion, during the time of Jesus there had already been a long tradition of dying and rising savior gods. This information was an influence to believers of the time.

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Would you explain more about the "how" you are interested in? I don't know if I could answer how I believed, because I'm not sure what you are asking.[/B][/QUOTE]

I'm asking how you became Christian? How you realized you were Christian? Perhaps you see it more as "why" instead of "how". That's fine. If you would also like to share the "why" the "what" and even the "when", that would be nice too.
Thanks for sharing all that you have!
Sincerely,
Charlie

Tired Runner

I remember the turning point in my life was when I prayed from my heart to God for the first time, and He responded. I began crying, because I felt a strong but gentle touch deep within me. From that point on I began to grow. It was my first real, honest prayer. Now hymns make me glad. "Tis so sweet to trust in Jesus", "Tis the song of the soul set free", and "The Old Rugged Cross".

I also heard several stories about serious things that real Christians did, and I understood them in a whole new way. It wasn't just, "oh, that's nice, they risked their lives and gave up any other career choices to do this and that for people". It became, "I'm glad that they had the chance to witness to people. I'd like to do that too. I'm going to pray for them". Also, the Bible began to make sense to me--before, it was just like what (seemingly) a lot of people think it is--confusing, contradicting, and something to attack. Note that I don't accuse anyone, I'm just stating one of my observations.

Biff the unclean

Sorry Tired Runner, but I'm having trouble buying that. If you were crying and praying like you say it sounds like some kind of breakdown. That's not normal behavior. Were you reduced to this state by circumstances in your life or were you responding to the prompting of some group?
I'm guessing group pressure since you admit to suddenly condoning the reprehensible behavior of proselytizing and deciding to abandon critical thinking when dealing with the bible.

wildernesse

Some of the experiences could be coincidences, yes. Others could not really be classified as coincidental, in that they are not really external events. The only example I have of this is very personal and important to me, and as such is not something that I talk about casually. I hope you understand. I am aware that much of what I am thinking of as internal events could be biologically or psychologically based, in other words completely natural. However, I do not believe this to be the case.

I think that indoctrinated has too much of a negative connotation to it to accurately describe this worldview-building in children. I feel that it implies that the indoctrinators knowingly feed the indoctrinees falsehoods in order to get a desired result. This isn't the case, because the teachers aren't being knowingly untruthful. In most cases, I would say that worldviews are equal--in that there is no objective standard to evaluate them by.

I think there was a slight misinterpretation. I did not mean to imply that you have a belief in anything supernatural, but you do have a worldview that was shaped by your parents and society at large. Your worldview simply does not include the supernatural. Correct?


Very few people would call me a patient person!! haha. My husband is very patient, and that does help in all aspects of our relationship.

Well, I don't know. It could be that common qualities across cultures represent a real God out there, interested in human life. Or, humans could just have a need for order in their lives, and the role their deity plays gives them control over the uncontrollable, in that they know who is in control.

Very much so. Does the "see what we want to" work for those who don't believe in the supernatural also? I think there is a possibility that it can.

Well, those people are obviously crazy!! Everyone knows there are no such things as aliens!

I think this is very interesting. I am sure that the culture of the time influenced the early believers in Christ, and that it continues to do so today. Why do you think that this belief continues today?

Thanks for clearing that up--I was thinking that you were asking "How do you believe?" in the same way someone could ask "How do you make a peanut butter sandwich?" I've already told you the "why", so I think that covers the how for me.

--tibac

Tired Runner

Thanks for replying. I guess it sounds like some kind of breakdown. But after that, I began changing to a much better person. Sounds kinda freaky, I guess, but it's happening. My life was going as normal, nothing unusual. And no, I was not responding to the prompting of any group. If you can't believe that, believe me when I say that I am an extremely intrapersonal type, and people have very hard times convincing me otherwise. I don't mean to be difficult, but that's how I am. And you don't need to use "big" words to make a point; simple is better. Unless you're trying to scare me or something, in that case, have fun.

Biff the unclean

Tired Runner I guess it sounds like some kind of breakdown.
Yes it does, but it sounds so structured that it would indicate that it was an induced and directed break down. Nasty stuff, they used to call it "brain washing."
But after that, I began changing to a much better person. Sounds kinda freaky, I guess, but it's happening.
This does not sound at all positive. Personality shifts are not a good sign.
My life was going as normal, nothing unusual. And no, I was not responding to the prompting of any group.
Were you using any kind of drug? Did you mix medications?
If you can't believe that, believe me when I say that I am an extremely intrapersonal type, and people have very hard times convincing me otherwise.
Are you saying you are introverted? That type of personality is a prime target for cults. They prey on your lack of self-esteem.
And you don't need to use "big" words to make a point; simple is better. Unless you're trying to scare me or something, in that case, have fun
I'm afraid that I write exactly as I speak. I certainly don't want to scare you, but I don't want to "talk down" to you either.
It's just that all the references you have made to "change" and how when others don't have the right stuff the change doesn't stick is very frightening. You sound like you have been victimized. But this website is an excellent place for you to have come. There are quite a few here who can offer you sensible advice to help you through this.

Charlie

Hi Tired Runner,
Thanks for sharing.. I am in the middle of leaving for a vacation and cannot properly respond. Will reply when I return. Thanks for your patiences.
Sincerley,
Charlie

Charlie

wildernesse,
I'm in the middle of leaving for some time in the mountains.. hiking, creeks, waterfalls... I will reply properly when I return.
Charlie

wildernesse

That sounds like so much fun! I hope you have a great time, and I'm in no rush.

--tibac

Charlie