Koyaanisqatsi

WJ, do you ever ask anything coherent? You haven't yet.

I have avoided nothing. Indeed, I have quite clearly and succinctly detailed precisely what all of my points are.

I have no "faith" and/or "belief system."

Yes. A christian is a member of the christian cult due to the essence of their "belief system."

That is demonstrably incorrect.

I have no "belief system." I either know or I don't know or I think it may be based on the available facts in evidence.

We don't care about fictional creatures. We care that entire empires have been formed on the fraud of such fictional creatures existing and all of the historical and current evil such fraud has wrought, such as the christian cult.

I have explained this in great detail three times now.

[ April 18, 2002: Message edited by: Koyaanisqatsi ]</p>

WJ

Koy!

Perhaps you can help me try to be more coherent. Let us start with the basic question of propositional logic. Don't you have to believe God exists before you debat, argue, sell, market and all that other stuff you do as an atheist, before you can coherently debate the non-existence of God? wouldn't a better alternative be, if you truly know that God doesn't exist, is to not debate the concept of a no-thing, or a non-existent thing?


Then you said exactly what I've been telling you; that you are another religious person:

"We don't care about fictional creatures. We care that entire empires have been formed on the fraud of such fictional creatures existing and all of the historical and current evil such fraud has wrought, such as the christian cult."

So you're implying that you're out to change the world with your non-belief of a God. No?

I welcome correction

Walrus

BibleBelted

WJ originally posted:

Huh?

Doesn't this statement alone demonstrate that it is futile to attempt reasoning with this person?

He's got to be a troll.

[ April 18, 2002: Message edited by: BibleBelted ]</p>

WJ

Bible!

You may want to research the difference between analytic and synthetic propositional logic. Otherwise, you seem to be in the same political religious boat as your friend(s)... . Simply saying the 'moon is cheeze' doesn't help your case...

Please tell us what it is you are trying to say or argue? Maybe try reducing your thoughts [reason] and concerns/arguments into a logical syllogism supporting whatever it is you're claiming...?

Walrus

bluefugue

This makes as much sense as saying "not believing in elves is a fixation on elves."

Do you believe in elves, WJ? If the answer is "no," does that mean you are fixated on elves?

The primary reason we atheists talk about God a lot is because everyone *else* does, and because everyone *else* is constantly telling us that we are

a) delusional
b) evil
c) doomed to eternal damnation

and sundry other things, because we do not believe in God. So we tend to talk about it, study it, ponder it, etc., in order to be able to defend our opinions, and also because, being open-minded types, we do not exclude the possibility of one day changing our opinion on the matter. I hardly consider this a "fixation," any more than a Democrat is "fixated" on Republicans because he knows enough about their convictions to rebut them if required.

Finally, that cheap pop-psych comment cuts both ways. If atheists are "fixated" on God, then theists like you must be "fixated" on God's nonexistence in order to keep arguing about it with atheists. Oh wait a minute -- you're just doing God's bidding by saving the heathens, right? Honestly, don't bother...

BibleBelted

Wj originally posted:
no

Rational Ag

:boggle:

I am no philosopher, so your label of an 'epistemological rationalist' escapes me. I don't know if I am or not.

No. In order to debate the non-existence of God I only need to understand the god concept of the person I am debating.

If I wanted to debate with you on the existence of a fizzbang, we would set grounds for what a fizzbang is and isn't. We would then proceed discussing the fizzbang based on the definition I posed. You wouldn't have to believe that fizzbangs exist in order to show that they don't. You would only need to understand my definition of a fizzbang.

I don't. I made the inference based on your opinion in other posts. You seem like a religious person to me. I'm sorry for grouping you with biblical fundamentalists who push biblical morality, principals, and superstition on society.

We do care, which is one of the fundamental reasons this community exists. Never did I say we didn't care.

Some of us are fanatic about our atheism; some are apathetic.

-Rational Ag

HRG

No, just as we can debate whether Hamlet should have acted earlier without having to believe that he was a real person.

What atheists discuss is not God-existing-as-a-real-entity, but God-the-concept-in-theist-minds.
Just as a Christian would discuss Brahma-the-concept-in-Hindu-theologians'-minds.

I think this should be part of the SAD *).

Regards,
HRG.

*) Standard Atheist Disclaimer

God Head

Any one who thinks God is evil is taking their cue from the Bible, or Torah or Koran or other book and applying their own perception of what God SHOULD be onto it. How should we even begin to understand the mind of a force that created the universe? Maybe the existance of evil and our ability to reject it is part of what makes us human. If God created us incapable of evil (and lets face it all evil is caused by man) maybe we would not be human, but robots mindlessly inacting in his way. To quote the Wu-Tang Clan

"Life is a test many quest the universe
And through my research, I felt the joy and the hurt
The first shall be last and the last shall be first
The Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth"

free12thinker

How are we to believe that such a force in fact created the universe, when there isn't any evidence to back such a claim? Faith? Are we supposed to just grow faith in a garden in the back of our house, because it's obvious that we don't have it. And it's not exactly something you can just go out and find. Faith is putting trust into the unknown, and the analytical mind makes that impossible. And let's fact it, 99% of Non-Theists are analytical. Scientists must also be analytical, and in this, the theory of evolution, which has been explored and put into fact by scientists, has to make sense to us. We see fact=We see truth. Different from, we hear about something=we require proof=we are skeptical.
And it certainly does not help that the stories, intentions, mysteries, la la la behind God and Jesus are told in more languages, and behind more theories and levels of understanding than we care to count.

But back to your post. I don't think the idea of God is evil. He's just out of touch with reality. Answer the following questions for me if you will.
1. Why are we born with emotions and necessity for love, yet asked to hold back such love if it is love for the same sex.
2. Why are women so damn smart (better test scores), and yet are asked to hold back such smarts and play certain roles.
3. Why are we born with "free will" from God and yet are asked to:
-put him before anyone else in our lives
-follows his tutelage, repent our "sins" or face the repercussions?
-dress a certain way so as not to pull the attention away from God

Blah Blah Blah

My reply sounds harsh (what with the "blah's" and the "la la's"), but to the thinking person, if it sounds like a tyranny than it is a tyranny. And if it sounds like a ghost story, than he's probably a ghost. And if there's a lot of mystery and grey, than it's probably a great story, nothing more.