Freethought & Rationalism Archive

plantingaquinasus · 07-05-2002, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Satan in the book of Job is a lower case. There are many meanings for the word "Satan" in Hebrew, if you have done your homework, or even bothered to look in an concordance, the very simplist and basic if Bible study.

Here, you're obviously wrong. It's not lower-case at all. The Hebrew for this word is always preceded by the definitive article. In the Hebrew of 1CH 21:1 the article is not used, because by then "Satan" had become a proper name.

Quote:

In this case "satan" means adversary, or prosecuting attorney. Edwin M. Good, professor of religious studies at Sanford University writes, "The Hebrew reads "the satan," the definite article showing that then word is a TITLE, not a proper name.

Actually its "the accuser" if you want the literal translation. The rest applies to above.

Quote:

This is not an atheist author, but a Christian author.This is neither my assertion or assumption, but the accepted interpretation by the scholars of the Hebrew language.

I don't care if he's a god; this 'Hebrew scholar' is doing bad hebrew, if you quoted him correctly. Basically, for reasons shown above. Also, I have done some research for you and, if you want, I can post ALL the Hebrew scholars that agree with the way that I've handled the interpretive aspects of this satan issue.

Quote:

Strong's defines the Hebrew word "ra" used in this case as "bad" or "evil" coming from a root word meaning "to spoil". Other definitions included, "adversity, affiction, and calamity". The word used in Isaiah 45:7 is clearly to be in juxtaposition to the word "good" since in that same statement "light" and "darkness" are mentioned accordingly. Gideon prefers the translation, "peace and calmity". Of course if God can not create evil, because it is not a tangible object, he also can not be thre creator of goodness for the same reason. Hence God can not be neither good nor evil. Since this goes against the basic teachings of the Bible, I would have to conclude the real meaning is that god creates evil. You might want to define that "evil" as "calamity", but it is basically the same. If Is 45:7 was the only Biblical passage which mentions God and evil in the same breath, I would say you have a valid point, however there are several other references of God causing trouble. In Chr 18:22 the Lord speaks evil against me. Micah 1:12 "Evil came down from the Lord" In 1 Sam 16:16 "the EVIL spirit from God was upon thee". If the evil spirit came from God, didn't he create it? Would seem to be the logical conclusion.

Before I get into the Isaigh 45:7 thing I just want to say that your argument about assuming God ONLY creates tangable things is seriously flawed. I guess God didn't make our spirits or our minds either, huh? God can make the tangible and the in tangible. The reason why God didn't make evil is not because its not tangible, but because it's not a thing. Its the abscense of a thing. It's the abscense of good. It's good gone bad. God made the potentiality of evil; we are the ones that actualized it.

Your Isaiah 45:7 issue is OLD news in the apologist community and most of the proponents of the problem of evil don't even use it anymore. I won't waste my time answering something that's already been answered so see <a href="http://www.tektonics.org/godevil.html" target="_blank">http://www.tektonics.org/godevil.html</a> , <a href="http://www.christian-thinktank.com/iamwrong1.html" target="_blank">http://www.christian-thinktank.com/iamwrong1.html</a> , and <a href="http://www.carm.org/diff/Isa_45_7.htm" target="_blank">http://www.carm.org/diff/Isa_45_7.htm</a> which pretty much answers everything that you're objecting too. If you have any objections to these, then I'll deal with this further.
and also 1 Sam 16:16 is completely taken out of context. READ FURTHER. Saul's attendents are saying this. This is their point of view. Read further to verse 23, "Whenever the spirit from God came upon Saul, David would take his harp and play. Then relief would come to Saul; he would feel better, and THE EVIL SPIRIT WOULD LEAVE HIM." Hmmmm.

I also have a question before I answer your question on this:

Quote:

Jaddua, (Neh 12:11) was a high priset during the time of Alexander the Great.

Is Neh an abbreviation for Nehemiah? If so, I don't see the name Jaddua anywhere.

Quote:

Anyway back to the point- In the older version 1Sam 24:1 God ordered David to perform a census (prelude to war an evil thing). In the later version 1Ch 21:1 it was Satan who provoked David to perform the census, not God.

Old, old, old news. These two verses aren't even brought up anymore by the skeptic community. A DETAILED answer is here: <a href="http://www.christian-thinktank.com/hcensus.html" target="_blank">http://www.christian-thinktank.com/hcensus.html</a>

But if you want a BRIEF synopsis it's here: <a href="http://debate.org.uk/topics/apolog/contrads.htm" target="_blank">http://debate.org.uk/topics/apolog/contrads.htm</a>
It's NUMBER 1 on the list.

--------------------------------------------------Where is Satan referred as "THE MORNING STAR"?
--------------------------------------------------

Quote:

Barbara walker writes on the origin of Satan (Woman's Encyclopedia of Myth and Secrets) that "satan first appears in the Bible as one of the 'sons of God' (bene ha-elohim)" but "Bible translators always sigularized the plurals to conceal the fact that the biblical Jews worshipped a pantheon of multiple gods" Hnece Satan became a son of God.

Who is barbara walker? What credentials does she have? I can't shout out "APPEAL TO AUTHORITY" until I know first that she's a qualified authority. Well, is she? Where does she get her info about satan first appearing in the bible as one of the 'sons of God'? You are making HUGE leaps of logic in your 2 quotes of her from her book!! Even if it was true that Bible translators always sigularized the plurals to conceal the fact that the biblical Jews worshipped a pantheon of multiple gods, then in what way, or what is your reasoning behind compulsively, "this has got to mean that satan became a son of God". I just don't buy it.

Quote:

"This 'son of god' was identified with the lightning serpent Lucifer by the words of Jesus, who claimed to have seen Satan descending into earth as lightning (Luke 10:18). This repeated Persian myths concerning Ahriaman, the lightning-serpent cast from heaven to the underworld by the god of light."

This whole quote has the basic presupposition that the anti-word-of-godism. The HAD to have gotten its stuff from some Persian myth, it CAN'T be the Word of God. That's just begging the question. Just because some ancient persian mythological parallel can be drawn from certian aspects of the gospels doesn't automatically mean that it DID get its info from the myths. Why could someone make an analogy FROM ancient myths to better illustrate a historical fact: Satan's fall. I think your wording was bad so I think I failed to fully understand what you were trying to say. So, if you must, you can re-word it.

So far I think:
1.)Evil doesn't disprove God.
2.)I don't see any good reasons to believe in you mythology points.

Vorkosigan · 07-06-2002, 02:18 AM

PlantAq:

Counter-simplicity: Job is the oldest book in the Bible and has Satan around 1900-1500 BC, before the Jews were more than a few family

Job is one of the younger books in the Bible, generally dated between 600-200 BCE by sober scholarship.

First, evil is...intentions and intentional acts (both being 'acts' or 'personally directed events' and not 'things') of intelligent agents, that violate the God-derived principles of love, fairness, or loyalty. Second, no, 'acts' and 'events' are not 'made'--they are 'done'. God made and created 'things' and 'agents', not their 'acts' or 'events'...He 'did' His own 'acts' (of course), but other agents 'do' their own 'acts'. So God did not 'make evil' (the phrase is meaningless and nonsensical)

It seems you are arguing here that god did not create moral behavior and attitudes at all, since your argument applies equally to good or evil.

I am glad you gave us the links to Holding and CARM. Holding's site is always good for belly laugh, and CARM's is priceless:

It is not a moral evil that God brings, but calamity and distress upon people. Of course, this raises other questions of why God would do such a thing, which I won't cover here. But, we can trust that whatever God does is just and is used for teaching, guiding, and disciplining His people.

Yes, babies dying hideous, lingering deaths from disease are there to teach and guide us.....Like I always say, scratch a Christian, find a nihilist.

CARM ends with:
Therefore, God does not create evil in the moral sense, but in the sense of disaster, of calamity.

From the NIV:
Exodus 4:21
The Lord said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

Exodus 7:3
But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt,

Exodus 9:12
But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said to Moses.

Exodus 10:1
Then the Lord said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them

Exodus 10:20
But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go.

Exodus 10:27
But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he was not willing to let them go.

Exodus 11:10
Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh, but the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go out of his country.

Exodus 14:4
And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the Lord ." So the Israelites did this.

Exodus 14:8
The Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, so that he pursued the Israelites, who were marching out boldly.

Exodus 14:17
I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they will go in after them. And I will gain glory through Pharaoh and all his army, through his chariots and his horsemen.

The way these passages read, God deliberately made Pharaoh hate the Hebrews, then, like Michael Corleone, he killed them so that they would know he was the Big Kahuna. Looks to me like God is creating and then doing evil here.

1 Samuel 16 (NIV)
"Let our lord command his servants here to search for someone who can play the harp. He will play when the evil spirit from God comes upon you, and you will feel better."

Michael's original cite looks clear to me. Here that clever fellow YHWH is once again solving a problem by causing a human pain, this time sending an evil spirit -- pardon me, a calamitous spirit -- into a hapless worshipper of his. Later on David is able to relieve Saul by playing his harp....just like buying protection from Michael Corleone. It does indeed look like the Mafia was divinely inspired.

Earth to PlantAq: if some asshole poisons you, it doesn't suddenly become ethical if he then provides you the antidote.

Of course, this classic sort of makes all the trivial evils, from slaying individuals to wiping out whole cities, seem, well, trivial:

"And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them."

Hell of a god you worship; destroys the earth, keeps his own private torture chamber, allows evil to be committed unchecked by his followers.

Vorkosigan

[ July 06, 2002: Message edited by: Vorkosigan ]

Vinnie · 07-06-2002, 08:12 AM

Anticipating the response:

See Glenn Miller's article on the Hardening of Pharoah's Heart

<a href="http://www.christian-thinktank.com/hharden.html" target="_blank">http://www.christian-thinktank.com/hharden.html</a>

Of course, one could always say the Biblical Exodus never happened and looking for "proof texts" in old religious books that show God did or didn't create evil is silly. Did the fall happen before or after quark confinement?

Vinnie

Vorkosigan · 07-06-2002, 02:50 PM

Miller's argument is worthless:

In pharaoh's case, it is clear from the first 4-5 self-hardenings, that what Pharaoh wanted was 'a hard heart' toward the claims of the God of the Universe (remember, the Pharaoh was God himself in Egyptian religion of those days). In this case, God granted this in spades--but USED THAT to get the message of God out to masses and masses of people. It is in this vein that I am working on the relationship of man's responsibility toward God and God's sovereignty.

Of course, this is absurd. As Exodus 10:24-27 says:

24 Then Pharaoh summoned Moses and said, "Go, worship the Lord . Even your women and children may go with you; only leave your flocks and herds behind."
25 But Moses said, "You must allow us to have sacrifices and burnt offerings to present to the Lord our God. 26 Our livestock too must go with us; not a hoof is to be left behind. We have to use some of them in worshiping the Lord our God, and until we get there we will not know what we are to use to worship the Lord ."
27 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he was not willing to let them go.

Clearly, according to the book, Pharaoh is willing to let Moses go, but then god intervenes to change the situation. Very evil of him too.

Of course, one could always say the Biblical Exodus never happened and looking for "proof texts" in old religious books that show God did or didn't create evil is silly.

I quite agree, but then neither of us are wacky inerrantists.

Vorkosigan

Vinnie · 07-06-2002, 06:47 PM

Maybe Miller is taking the idiom approach. A paragraph earlier he quoted this:

Quote:

"On the distinction between the three Hebrew words used for hardening, see Walter C. Kaiser, Jr., Toward Old Testament Ethics (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1983), pp. 252-56. The verb used here is chazakh (hazaq "to strengthen, confirm"). Bush (Exodus 1:65) argued that "the language implies simply [and he cites usage that agrees in Judg 9:24; 2 Chron 26:8; Isa 35:3; 41:7; and Jer 23:14] that the course of events should be so ordered that, without any positive divine influence exerted upon him, the haughty king should take occasion to confirm himself in the disregard of the counsels of the Most High.... This God is said to have done because he permitted it to be done " (emphasis his)." (EBC, Ex 4.21, notes)

Either way I don't care much as I deny the historicity of the Biblical Exodus. Another issue that could be brought up here is the logisitc problems of the Exodus.

Quote:

I quite agree, but then neither of us are wacky inerrantists.

Thats true--neither of us advocate biblical inerrancy but I wonder none the less, how convincing are these reductio ad absurdom arguments to inerrantists? There is *always* an alleged explanation.

Vinnie

Vorkosigan · 07-07-2002, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ilgwamh:
Maybe Miller is taking the idiom approach. A paragraph earlier he quoted this:

Thats true--neither of us advocate biblical inerrancy but I wonder none the less, how convincing are these reductio ad absurdom arguments to inerrantists? There is *always* an alleged explanation.

Vinnie

I feel that they must at least be potentially convincing. Some inerrantists have shifted their positions over the years. There is hope.

Vorkosigan

Michael Ledo · 07-12-2002, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by plantingaquinasus:


This whole quote has the basic presupposition that the anti-word-of-godism. The HAD to have gotten its stuff from some Persian myth, it CAN'T be the Word of God. That's just begging the question. Just because some ancient persian mythological parallel can be drawn from certian aspects of the gospels doesn't automatically mean that it DID get its info from the myths. Why could someone make an analogy FROM ancient myths to better illustrate a historical fact: Satan's fall. I think your wording was bad so I think I failed to fully understand what you were trying to say. So, if you must, you can re-word it.

So far I think:
1.)Evil doesn't disprove God.
2.)I don't see any good reasons to believe in you mythology points.

As stated before these are not MY mythological points, but those of normal thinking scholars undiluted by Bible fanatacism. They will never be believed by that crowd, who creates they scholarship on the fly. I don't expect you to accept what main stream scholars teach. I am justing giving you their view point which makes a mockery of yours.

wdog · 07-12-2002, 04:20 PM

plantingaquinasus,

Quote:

First, evil is...intentions and intentional acts (both being 'acts' or 'personally directed events' and not 'things') of
intelligent agents, that violate the God-derived principles of love, fairness, or loyalty. Second, no, 'acts' and 'events' are not 'made'--they are 'done'. God made and created 'things' and 'agents', not their 'acts' or 'events'...He 'did' His own 'acts' (of course), but other agents 'do' their own 'acts'. So God did not 'make evil' (the phrase is meaningless and nonsensical)

but god created a universe with conditions in which evil is possible, why? if he so despises it

also since god is omniscient, he knows when and how these acts will be done, he then also knew that evil would exist before he even made the universe. what the hell for?

wdog · 07-12-2002, 04:24 PM

I love this quote from glen miller's page

<a href="http://www.christian-thinktank.com/iamwrong1.html" target="_blank">http://www.christian-thinktank.com/iamwrong1.html</a>

Quote:

And hopefully through this exercise, I have made the point that most words have a range of meaning;, and that we must be sensitive to the elements in the text and context to determine where within that range that particular instance falls.

If most words in the bible have a range of meaning, it renders the document almost useless as then it would be impossible to exactly ascertain the intended meaning even if you have context, since the context itself is then open to question.

Michael Ledo · 07-13-2002, 05:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Optics Guy:
I love this quote from glen miller's page

<a href="http://www.christian-thinktank.com/iamwrong1.html" target="_blank">http://www.christian-thinktank.com/iamwrong1.html</a>

If most words in the bible have a range of meaning, it renders the document almost useless as then it would be impossible to exactly ascertain the intended meaning even if you have context, since the context itself is then open to question.

I was watching a discussion on TV. Some Hebrew scholar comes on and claims 25% of the words in the OT are in dispute. After reading that jibberish on "evil" I can see why.

07-06-2002, 02:18 AM	#12
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	PlantAq: Counter-simplicity: Job is the oldest book in the Bible and has Satan around 1900-1500 BC, before the Jews were more than a few family Job is one of the younger books in the Bible, generally dated between 600-200 BCE by sober scholarship. First, evil is...intentions and intentional acts (both being 'acts' or 'personally directed events' and not 'things') of intelligent agents, that violate the God-derived principles of love, fairness, or loyalty. Second, no, 'acts' and 'events' are not 'made'--they are 'done'. God made and created 'things' and 'agents', not their 'acts' or 'events'...He 'did' His own 'acts' (of course), but other agents 'do' their own 'acts'. So God did not 'make evil' (the phrase is meaningless and nonsensical) It seems you are arguing here that god did not create moral behavior and attitudes at all, since your argument applies equally to good or evil. I am glad you gave us the links to Holding and CARM. Holding's site is always good for belly laugh, and CARM's is priceless: It is not a moral evil that God brings, but calamity and distress upon people. Of course, this raises other questions of why God would do such a thing, which I won't cover here. But, we can trust that whatever God does is just and is used for teaching, guiding, and disciplining His people. Yes, babies dying hideous, lingering deaths from disease are there to teach and guide us.....Like I always say, scratch a Christian, find a nihilist. CARM ends with: Therefore, God does not create evil in the moral sense, but in the sense of disaster, of calamity. From the NIV: Exodus 4:21 The Lord said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. Exodus 7:3 But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt, Exodus 9:12 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said to Moses. Exodus 10:1 Then the Lord said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them Exodus 10:20 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go. Exodus 10:27 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he was not willing to let them go. Exodus 11:10 Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh, but the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go out of his country. Exodus 14:4 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the Lord ." So the Israelites did this. Exodus 14:8 The Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, so that he pursued the Israelites, who were marching out boldly. Exodus 14:17 I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they will go in after them. And I will gain glory through Pharaoh and all his army, through his chariots and his horsemen. The way these passages read, God deliberately made Pharaoh hate the Hebrews, then, like Michael Corleone, he killed them so that they would know he was the Big Kahuna. Looks to me like God is creating and then doing evil here. 1 Samuel 16 (NIV) "Let our lord command his servants here to search for someone who can play the harp. He will play when the evil spirit from God comes upon you, and you will feel better." Michael's original cite looks clear to me. Here that clever fellow YHWH is once again solving a problem by causing a human pain, this time sending an evil spirit -- pardon me, a calamitous spirit -- into a hapless worshipper of his. Later on David is able to relieve Saul by playing his harp....just like buying protection from Michael Corleone. It does indeed look like the Mafia was divinely inspired. Earth to PlantAq: if some asshole poisons you, it doesn't suddenly become ethical if he then provides you the antidote. Of course, this classic sort of makes all the trivial evils, from slaying individuals to wiping out whole cities, seem, well, trivial: "And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them." Hell of a god you worship; destroys the earth, keeps his own private torture chamber, allows evil to be committed unchecked by his followers. Vorkosigan [ July 06, 2002: Message edited by: Vorkosigan ]</p>

07-06-2002, 02:50 PM	#14
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Miller's argument is worthless: In pharaoh's case, it is clear from the first 4-5 self-hardenings, that what Pharaoh wanted was 'a hard heart' toward the claims of the God of the Universe (remember, the Pharaoh was God himself in Egyptian religion of those days). In this case, God granted this in spades--but USED THAT to get the message of God out to masses and masses of people. It is in this vein that I am working on the relationship of man's responsibility toward God and God's sovereignty. Of course, this is absurd. As Exodus 10:24-27 says: 24 Then Pharaoh summoned Moses and said, "Go, worship the Lord . Even your women and children may go with you; only leave your flocks and herds behind." 25 But Moses said, "You must allow us to have sacrifices and burnt offerings to present to the Lord our God. 26 Our livestock too must go with us; not a hoof is to be left behind. We have to use some of them in worshiping the Lord our God, and until we get there we will not know what we are to use to worship the Lord ." 27 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he was not willing to let them go. Clearly, according to the book, Pharaoh is willing to let Moses go, but then god intervenes to change the situation. Very evil of him too. Of course, one could always say the Biblical Exodus never happened and looking for "proof texts" in old religious books that show God did or didn't create evil is silly. I quite agree, but then neither of us are wacky inerrantists. Vorkosigan

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07-06-2002, 08:12 AM	#13
Vinnie Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Waterbury, Ct, Usa Posts: 6,523	Anticipating the response: See Glenn Miller's article on the Hardening of Pharoah's Heart <a href="http://www.christian-thinktank.com/hharden.html" target="_blank">http://www.christian-thinktank.com/hharden.html</a> Of course, one could always say the Biblical Exodus never happened and looking for "proof texts" in old religious books that show God did or didn't create evil is silly. Did the fall happen before or after quark confinement? Vinnie

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