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Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Yesterday at 05:55 AM

View Poll Results: Abortion, terminate when?
Never 19 12.18%
Up to one month 5 3.21%
Up to two months 7 4.49%
Up to three months 42 26.92%
Up to four months 14 8.97%
up to five months 7 4.49%
Up to six months 25 16.03%
Up to seven months 1 0.64%
Up to eight months 17 10.90%
Infanticide is OK 19 12.18%
Voters: 156. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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Old 04-27-2003, 08:25 PM   #371
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Originally posted by theMomma
Infanticide is very rare, abortion very common, which also makes them very different.
Gosh, I feel so much better now. Makes me completely forget that a fetus aborted at 8 1/2 months looks rather like an newborn that has been mauled to death by a pit bull.

Quote:
In my own situation, I delivered my babies as soon as it became obvious I was going to die if I didn't. The hospital bills for the surviving children were well over $100,000usd with no complications at all, and had I not had excellent medical insurance I have no idea how that would have been paid for. However, at 10 weeks pregnant, if abortion were illegal, would you feel that the potential risks would justify reducing the pregnancy? And who do you feel should make that decision? And if abortion were illegal, even if it were obviously in the woman's best interest to reduce a pregnancy, the doctor could not give that advice, therefore seriously hindering the care he would be able to give.
I don't see why. I've never seen anyone suggest that abortion is wrong when the life of the mother is at risk. Besides, we're talking about less than 2% of abortions done for other than elective reasons. Does it make sense to countenance the slaughter of the other 98% to protect the 500 or so women per year in the US who could possibly have been saved from death in childbirth by an abortion?

Quote:
I'm also not talking major complications. I have several friends that after having children have cronic bladder control problems. I personally have so many stretchmarks and such loose skin that in order to look normal I will need plastic surgery (granted, this generally only happens with pregnancies of multiples).
How is this relevant?

Quote:
Your feelings on this won't stop abortion. Making abortion illegal won't stop abortions. And as I said before, middle class and wealthy women will still be getting their *safe* abortions, while poor women and teenage girls will be seeing whoever promises them to end their pregnancies. It happened before abortion was legal, and as long as women want to end their pregnancies, it will continue to happen. Of course, the poor women and the teenage girls who have complications after seeing these back-alley abortionists will have to choose to seek medical care and go to prison or die.
Maybe after awhile they'll start to wise up and not let their boyfriends treat them like sluts.
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Old 04-28-2003, 10:00 AM   #372
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Originally posted by theMomma
Ok, but there are alternatives to infanticide; for instance, women can leave their babies in a hospital emergency room with no questions asked. Infanticide is very rare, abortion very common, which also makes them very different. One in four pregnancies are aborted.
Yes but the fact remains that the consequences to those that break the law are irrelevant. People still commit murder even though this is illegal. When they do, two people suffer having their rights taken away. If murder were legal, only one person would suffer having their rights taken away. We still should not sanction murder because it is still irrational to do so.

In my own situation, I delivered my babies as soon as it became obvious I was going to die if I didn't. The hospital bills for the surviving children were well over $100,000usd with no complications at all, and had I not had excellent medical insurance I have no idea how that would have been paid for. However, at 10 weeks pregnant, if abortion were illegal, would you feel that the potential risks would justify reducing the pregnancy? And who do you feel should make that decision? And if abortion were illegal, even if it were obviously in the woman's best interest to reduce a pregnancy, the doctor could not give that advice, therefore seriously hindering the care he would be able to give.

I'm also not talking major complications. I have several friends that after having children have cronic bladder control problems. I personally have so many stretchmarks and such loose skin that in order to look normal I will need plastic surgery (granted, this generally only happens with pregnancies of multiples).


I feel that we the people should make that decision. The people have made a decision. They have discriminated against a tiny portion of the population and legalized their death for their own convenience. This is not rational. Logically, an unborn human being should have the right to life until it is threatening the life of another, if human rights are equal and discrimination based on something other than guilt or innocence is wrong. If the people want their laws to follow logically and if they want to avoid setting precedents that individual members of the majority can arbitrarily destroy individual members of a minority if they find them to be extremely inconvenient, they ought not to support legal abortion.

I'll restate an analogy I particularly liked used earlier by someone on this board to show you exactly why I feel it is logical to prevent a rape victim from aborting her rapist's child due to non life threatening medical problems. Imagine you wake up in a bathtub full of ice with several of your organs removed. Say that you find out your organs have been removed without your consent and placed inside a child and that they are keeping him or her alive. Say not having several of your organs causes you major medical problems and drains your bank account. Here we have an example of another human being using your body without your permission and causing you untold amounts of medical and financial problems. Should you have the right to forcibly take your organs back, thus killing the child who is using them? The agent who removed your organs without your permission ought to be punished to the full extent of the law, but I'm afraid someone else is now in possession of those parts of your body which used to belong to you. You cannot kill an organ donee and take your organs back, even if you are experiencing medical problems and even if you were an unwilling donor. The only thing you can do is punish the party which removed your organs. No one should be forced to donate unwillingly, but everyone should be entitled to the organs that are keeping them alive, whether or not they were donated willingly. Since this is how the law works, one should not be able to kill a fetus to get their body back and avoid medical problems. This is a very unfortunate situation and I feel sorry for anyone in it and I think they should get all the aid that they need, but it does NOT justify killing the human being who is living by using your body.

Your feelings on this won't stop abortion. Making abortion illegal won't stop abortions. And as I said before, middle class and wealthy women will still be getting their *safe* abortions, while poor women and teenage girls will be seeing whoever promises them to end their pregnancies. It happened before abortion was legal, and as long as women want to end their pregnancies, it will continue to happen. Of course, the poor women and the teenage girls who have complications after seeing these back-alley abortionists will have to choose to seek medical care and go to prison or die.

My goal isn't necessarily to stop abortion. I believe in democracy and I believe the people should choose their laws. My goal is to educate people who don't realize that legal abortion is irrational in the United States and that all irrational and conflicting laws are more detrimental to society in the long run than they are beneficial. I can see the pro-slavery point of view as well and can even imagine how a person could feel sorry for those who loved having slaves after slavery was abolished, but the fact remains that slavery is, and always was, wrong. Appealing to my emotional connection and sympathy for the plight of the slavers is a red herring. Slavery is logically wrong no matter how sorry I may feel for a particular slave owner. Emotion has its place in human decision making, but you can't please all of the people all of the time, and having laws that follow logically and rationally takes precedence over giving ourselves everything that we want. When we have two conflicting laws that we emotionally desire to be in effect, we must sacrifice something we desire for the logical good of society. It is not logical to pretend that we can have our cake and eat it too. If we are to assume that all human beings are equal and have the right to life and freedom, then legal slavery must be sacrificed no matter how much we desire it, and legal abortion must be sacrificed no matter how much we desire it.
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Old 04-28-2003, 10:12 AM   #373
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Talking Thanks, professor:

Quote:
Originally posted by long winded fool
My goal is to educate people who don't realize that legal abortion is irrational in the United States...
...all you need to do now is present a rational argument to support your position, and then we'll stop laughing.
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Old 04-28-2003, 03:28 PM   #374
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Quote:
Originally posted by long winded fool
My goal is to educate people who don't realize that legal abortion is irrational in the United States...
Your name is so perfectly suited to you. I've had a less than 12 week abortion, have you? I have never had a regret, only relief.
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Old 04-29-2003, 10:29 AM   #375
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Hey, hey, infidelchic, no fair referencing actual reality here.
This had been a forum for white GUYS who just THEORIZE about the subject of abortion.
Let sleeping dogs lie (in both senses of the phrase).
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Old 04-29-2003, 11:12 AM   #376
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Quote:
Originally posted by JGL53
Hey, hey, infidelchic, no fair referencing actual reality here.
This had been a forum for white GUYS who just THEORIZE about the subject of abortion.
Let sleeping dogs lie (in both senses of the phrase).
Actually the personal experience of infidelchic raises some interesting questions. By destroying her baby she changed the course of her life.

First: She'll never know what blessings/trials the baby might have brought into her life. Her decision was solely based on a whim absent knowledge. Abortion on demand quintessentially changes the course of a person's life precisely because it is what they chose.

Second: The decision to abort commits a pregnant woman to a destiny of their own making without innocence, whatever else might happen for the rest of thier life.
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Old 04-29-2003, 11:39 AM   #377
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The father was an abusive, violent man. I told him I wanted an abortion and he said "Go for it bitch". Yes indeed I altered the course of my life, I'm happy to say.

I'm curious, why do men talk against it so much more than women?
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Old 04-29-2003, 12:02 PM   #378
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I was dirt poor at the time, the state paid for the abortion, but I was able to go on and get a fantastic university education. Oh my how terrible!
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Old 04-29-2003, 03:27 PM   #379
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Default Re: Thanks, professor:

Quote:
Originally posted by Dr Rick
...all you need to do now is present a rational argument to support your position, and then we'll stop laughing.
So far the refutation you constantly refer to is that my definition of human being logically includes chimpanzees, therefore if equal rights apply to all human beings then chimpanzees logically have equal rights to you and me. This is a strawman. You have switched my premise with one you have invented. Declaring that chimpanzees fall under the defintion of human being in my argument is a false statement.
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Old 04-29-2003, 03:43 PM   #380
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Originally posted by infidelchic
I was dirt poor at the time, the state paid for the abortion, but I was able to go on and get a fantastic university education. Oh my how terrible!
I am happy for you infidelchic. You have made life better for yourself in a tough situation. This is a good thing. Not only that, you did it legally. This is even better. My argument is simply that the action you took should not have been legal. I know you disagree, but I have a logical argument which proves this is the case. I don't judge you, and wouldn't even if abortion were illegal, however I do label illogical notions illogical, and conflicting laws detrimental to society. I do find your personal experiences interesting, but they do not have a bearing on the fact that legal abortion is illogical. I wish it were logical too.

Breaking a law often makes life better for the criminal. Try telling him that he did something wrong. He won't think so... unless he looks at the big picture. Stealing quickly gives him something he needs. Looking at the big picture, he may realize that stealing is not conducive to the betterment of society. He believes that it is in his best interest to not objectively look at the big picture, because guilt will undermine his temporary happiness and force him to concede that he was wrong, possibly hurting his ego. The truth is, though looking the big picture might take away immediate individual happiness and personal pride, it works to ensure long term happiness and the bettering of society on the whole at the temporary expense of the individual.
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