Freethought & Rationalism ArchiveThe archives are read only. |
|
View Poll Results: Abortion, terminate when? | |||
Never | 19 | 12.18% | |
Up to one month | 5 | 3.21% | |
Up to two months | 7 | 4.49% | |
Up to three months | 42 | 26.92% | |
Up to four months | 14 | 8.97% | |
up to five months | 7 | 4.49% | |
Up to six months | 25 | 16.03% | |
Up to seven months | 1 | 0.64% | |
Up to eight months | 17 | 10.90% | |
Infanticide is OK | 19 | 12.18% | |
Voters: 156. You may not vote on this poll |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
04-27-2003, 08:25 PM | #371 | ||||
Veteran Member
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,199
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
||||
04-28-2003, 10:00 AM | #372 | |
Veteran Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: USA
Posts: 2,113
|
Quote:
In my own situation, I delivered my babies as soon as it became obvious I was going to die if I didn't. The hospital bills for the surviving children were well over $100,000usd with no complications at all, and had I not had excellent medical insurance I have no idea how that would have been paid for. However, at 10 weeks pregnant, if abortion were illegal, would you feel that the potential risks would justify reducing the pregnancy? And who do you feel should make that decision? And if abortion were illegal, even if it were obviously in the woman's best interest to reduce a pregnancy, the doctor could not give that advice, therefore seriously hindering the care he would be able to give. I'm also not talking major complications. I have several friends that after having children have cronic bladder control problems. I personally have so many stretchmarks and such loose skin that in order to look normal I will need plastic surgery (granted, this generally only happens with pregnancies of multiples). I feel that we the people should make that decision. The people have made a decision. They have discriminated against a tiny portion of the population and legalized their death for their own convenience. This is not rational. Logically, an unborn human being should have the right to life until it is threatening the life of another, if human rights are equal and discrimination based on something other than guilt or innocence is wrong. If the people want their laws to follow logically and if they want to avoid setting precedents that individual members of the majority can arbitrarily destroy individual members of a minority if they find them to be extremely inconvenient, they ought not to support legal abortion. I'll restate an analogy I particularly liked used earlier by someone on this board to show you exactly why I feel it is logical to prevent a rape victim from aborting her rapist's child due to non life threatening medical problems. Imagine you wake up in a bathtub full of ice with several of your organs removed. Say that you find out your organs have been removed without your consent and placed inside a child and that they are keeping him or her alive. Say not having several of your organs causes you major medical problems and drains your bank account. Here we have an example of another human being using your body without your permission and causing you untold amounts of medical and financial problems. Should you have the right to forcibly take your organs back, thus killing the child who is using them? The agent who removed your organs without your permission ought to be punished to the full extent of the law, but I'm afraid someone else is now in possession of those parts of your body which used to belong to you. You cannot kill an organ donee and take your organs back, even if you are experiencing medical problems and even if you were an unwilling donor. The only thing you can do is punish the party which removed your organs. No one should be forced to donate unwillingly, but everyone should be entitled to the organs that are keeping them alive, whether or not they were donated willingly. Since this is how the law works, one should not be able to kill a fetus to get their body back and avoid medical problems. This is a very unfortunate situation and I feel sorry for anyone in it and I think they should get all the aid that they need, but it does NOT justify killing the human being who is living by using your body. Your feelings on this won't stop abortion. Making abortion illegal won't stop abortions. And as I said before, middle class and wealthy women will still be getting their *safe* abortions, while poor women and teenage girls will be seeing whoever promises them to end their pregnancies. It happened before abortion was legal, and as long as women want to end their pregnancies, it will continue to happen. Of course, the poor women and the teenage girls who have complications after seeing these back-alley abortionists will have to choose to seek medical care and go to prison or die. My goal isn't necessarily to stop abortion. I believe in democracy and I believe the people should choose their laws. My goal is to educate people who don't realize that legal abortion is irrational in the United States and that all irrational and conflicting laws are more detrimental to society in the long run than they are beneficial. I can see the pro-slavery point of view as well and can even imagine how a person could feel sorry for those who loved having slaves after slavery was abolished, but the fact remains that slavery is, and always was, wrong. Appealing to my emotional connection and sympathy for the plight of the slavers is a red herring. Slavery is logically wrong no matter how sorry I may feel for a particular slave owner. Emotion has its place in human decision making, but you can't please all of the people all of the time, and having laws that follow logically and rationally takes precedence over giving ourselves everything that we want. When we have two conflicting laws that we emotionally desire to be in effect, we must sacrifice something we desire for the logical good of society. It is not logical to pretend that we can have our cake and eat it too. If we are to assume that all human beings are equal and have the right to life and freedom, then legal slavery must be sacrificed no matter how much we desire it, and legal abortion must be sacrificed no matter how much we desire it. |
|
04-28-2003, 10:12 AM | #373 | |
Veteran Member
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 5,393
|
Thanks, professor:
Quote:
|
|
04-28-2003, 03:28 PM | #374 | |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: USA
Posts: 41
|
Quote:
|
|
04-29-2003, 10:29 AM | #375 |
Veteran Member
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Outer Mongolia
Posts: 4,091
|
Hey, hey, infidelchic, no fair referencing actual reality here.
This had been a forum for white GUYS who just THEORIZE about the subject of abortion. Let sleeping dogs lie (in both senses of the phrase). |
04-29-2003, 11:12 AM | #376 | |
Veteran Member
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Denver
Posts: 1,774
|
Quote:
First: She'll never know what blessings/trials the baby might have brought into her life. Her decision was solely based on a whim absent knowledge. Abortion on demand quintessentially changes the course of a person's life precisely because it is what they chose. Second: The decision to abort commits a pregnant woman to a destiny of their own making without innocence, whatever else might happen for the rest of thier life. |
|
04-29-2003, 11:39 AM | #377 |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: USA
Posts: 41
|
The father was an abusive, violent man. I told him I wanted an abortion and he said "Go for it bitch". Yes indeed I altered the course of my life, I'm happy to say.
I'm curious, why do men talk against it so much more than women? |
04-29-2003, 12:02 PM | #378 |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: USA
Posts: 41
|
I was dirt poor at the time, the state paid for the abortion, but I was able to go on and get a fantastic university education. Oh my how terrible!
|
04-29-2003, 03:27 PM | #379 | |
Veteran Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: USA
Posts: 2,113
|
Re: Thanks, professor:
Quote:
|
|
04-29-2003, 03:43 PM | #380 | |
Veteran Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: USA
Posts: 2,113
|
Quote:
Breaking a law often makes life better for the criminal. Try telling him that he did something wrong. He won't think so... unless he looks at the big picture. Stealing quickly gives him something he needs. Looking at the big picture, he may realize that stealing is not conducive to the betterment of society. He believes that it is in his best interest to not objectively look at the big picture, because guilt will undermine his temporary happiness and force him to concede that he was wrong, possibly hurting his ego. The truth is, though looking the big picture might take away immediate individual happiness and personal pride, it works to ensure long term happiness and the bettering of society on the whole at the temporary expense of the individual. |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|