Freethought & Rationalism Archive

gravitybow · 11-06-2002, 08:57 PM

Toto, you're stealing my thunder! I wanted Radorth to provide me with the Barton quote he loves so much. I know what the real one says, and it's NOT the Barton quote.

Toto · 11-06-2002, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Buffman:
Lighthouses are more helpful than churches.
-- Benjamin Franklin (source unknown)

Worthless and propagandistic attribution.

The only mention of lighthouses is in the Autobiography, chapter 14, where Franklin is on a boat and is saved from crashing into the rocks by a lighthouse. Franklin writes:

"This deliverance impressed me strongly with the utility of light-houses, and made me resolve to encourage the building more of them in America, if I should live to return there."

Since he had previously talked about the uselessness of churches, I think that this sentiment is one that could be derived from his Autobiography, but is probably not a quote.

Toto · 11-06-2002, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gravitybow:
Toto, you're stealing my thunder! I wanted Radorth to provide me with the Barton quote he loves so much. I know what the real one says, and it's NOT the Barton quote.

Sorry. I thought Radorth had given that quote - that's how I looked it up.

Besides, I'm tired of Radorth wasting bandwidth with his slipping and sliding around the issues.

gravitybow · 11-06-2002, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Toto:
Besides, I'm tired of Radorth wasting bandwidth with his slipping and sliding around the issues.

Agreed. He's already put words in my mouth to defeat an argument, given us the laughable John Edward version of Benjamin Franklin, refused to provide a quote that he offered, and sidestepped many other issues (like the lame school prayer response that didn't address his previous Supreme Court post iota). I guess he just can't bear to actually tangle with anyone that's two steps ahead of him.

Still care to feed me the Barton version, word-for-word, Radorth?

Radorth · 11-06-2002, 09:50 PM

Well GB, we're still waiting for the "Barton/Franklin" quote you mentioned, in which the context will make all the difference. Please provide ASAP.

So? Where is it? And what "thunder" are you talking about?

What's truly sad here is that nobody's even talking about what the other 50+ founders/ signers of the Constitution, as though 3 of them are the arbiters of all truth. So what we have is 3 of them who would consider your definition of separation tortured, and 50 who would laugh at it.

Rad

gravitybow · 11-06-2002, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Radorth:
Well GB, we're still waiting for the "Barton/Franklin" quote you mentioned, in which the context will make all the difference. Please provide ASAP.

But back on page 5:

Quote:

Originally posted by Radorth:
Would you like to see some Franklin quotes BTW, particularly the one about the lack of atheists in America?

No? The context makes no difference there either? Barton must have made it up you say?

Rad

Yes, I would like to see the Franklin quote about atheists, the one that comes from Barton. That was your offer, not mine. Put up, or shut up.

Buffman · 11-06-2002, 11:29 PM

Toto

Since he had previously talked about the uselessness of churches, I think that this sentiment is one that could be derived from his Autobiography, but is probably not a quote.

Thanks. I read that in his Autobiography which I found to be exceedingly dull and rather disjunctive; and why I called it a nightmare read. (Not only the lack of meaningful/ interesting historical content; but the side trips into seemingly personal irrelevancies.) I suspect that a number of these great men were extremely concerned with the verdict of history concerning their lives. (They did not lack for egos.) Washington, Jefferson, Adams, Franklin, Madison and many others of those days seemed to go to great lengths to massage their own histories. But then, the "not-so-great" men of our era seem to be caught up in the same desire for a historical posterity of their own creation/design.

I am afraid I do not hold with making up attributed quotes by anyone for any reason. Either Franklin said, or published, those exact words or he didn't. Since most of the non-theist Web pages seem to delight in attributing that quote to Franklin, I can only accuse them of doing exactly the same thing that Barton and his followers/supporters are doing...lying...even if unknowingly doing so. (IMHO, they have a responsibility to confirm the quotes they use. I have learned that lesson from using some of George Seldes quotes that are in error...like the the LaFayette one.)

Therefore, until someone can supply me with, or I can find, that exact quote at its original source, I will continue to consider it bogus. (I'm the one that has been chasing the attributed, but unconfirmed, Lafayette quote for over three years. That is another one that is found on many atheist quote sites. I have notified around half-a-dozen of them that I believe the quote is bogus as it appears on their sites.)

If I had to make a guess at what has happened is that someone correctly found the one quote in the 1758 issue of the "Poor Richard Improved" and someone else saw that attribution and assumed it was correct for the other "supposed" quote...and we may be the first to actually attempt to run it to ground...if possible. Just plug that entire quote into a Google search and you will see how many people are using it.

ybnormal · 11-07-2002, 04:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Buffman:
If they are unable to see the truth about the printed word, how likely are they to see the truth about the intent of the printed words in the Constitution?

Oh, it's much worse than that... they do see the truth, as clearly as you see it... but the truth doesn't matter, because the truth works against them... the honest Constitution is THE obstacle. Its truths condone what their bible condemns. They MUST create work-arounds... Barton is a work-arounder. The truth, as their enemy, is a weak and easy target.

Far more than anything obvious to us, Barton is a mentor... a teacher... a father... a pimp. Radorth is his apprentice... his student... his offspring... his...

I will never accept for a second that a man like this Radorth, can so flagrantly prostitute himself, and not be fully aware of each and every lie he tells for Barton, and for Jesus of course.

Folks who doubt this, and let the Bartons and the Radorths off the hook in the name of politically correct politeness, are aiding and abetting a fully committed, formidable foe.

Quote:

Originally posted by Buffman:
It would seem that too many so-called sincere Christians are willing to sacrifice the moral high ground to the non-believers like us.

Yes, but remember...

Moral is Immoral!

Immoral is Moral!

Truth is Lies!

Lies are Truth!

Right is Wrong!

Wrong is Right!

Good is Evil!

Evil is Good!

Daggah · 11-07-2002, 05:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Radorth:
Not at all Daggah. Hopefully the more thoughtful atheists here got the point. How old are you anyway?

Old enough to know bullshit when I smell it. And I certainly smell it now.

Quote:

I cited the case (in another thread) in which some heavy hitters came out against letting kids form a prayer club. (Note: ACLU was conspicuously absent from advocating such minor freedoms as the right to pray on campus) Guess you missed it.

Are you honestly suggesting that not allowing the use of PUBLIC resources to spread religious propaganda is equivalent to not allowing prayer? Then again, as we've seen, honesty isn't something you value.

Quote:

What did I claim about Frankin which does not appear above? Also please use direct quotes when slandering people.

Once again, it isn't slander if it's true. Your implications about Franklin's beliefs - as we've already seen - originate from lies and misquotes. These aren't honest tactics.

But again, you're not an honest person, so that's not surprising.

Oh yes, lie #6. You're a creationist. One can't BE a creationist without being a liar. Whether that's intentional or a result of ignorance is yet to be determined...

Radorth · 11-07-2002, 06:40 AM

Blah blah blah, Radorth's a liar. I just know it.

Quote:

Are you honestly suggesting that not allowing the use of PUBLIC resources to spread religious propaganda is equivalent to not allowing prayer?

No and that's what makes the case so ridiculous and lends credence to the assertion that there is a reactionary atheist agenda as well as a religious one. You really don't get the point, do you?

Quote:

Yes, I would like to see the Franklin quote about atheists, the one that comes from Barton.

You are being entirely disingenuous. I don't quote Barton. I don't own any of his books. I've never even read anything by Barton, so I have no idea what you are talking about. In your rush to judgement, based on nothing but suspicion, you just ASSUMED I was using any of his material, apparently.

I gave the source for Franklin's low opinion of atheists. I have no idea if that is what Barton uses.

But the Internet witch trial goes on anyway.

Rad

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11-06-2002, 08:57 PM	#141
gravitybow Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Washington, NC Posts: 1,696	Toto, you're stealing my thunder! I wanted Radorth to provide me with the Barton quote he loves so much. I know what the real one says, and it's NOT the Barton quote.

11-06-2002, 09:50 PM	#145
Radorth Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 1,872	Well GB, we're still waiting for the "Barton/Franklin" quote you mentioned, in which the context will make all the difference. Please provide ASAP. So? Where is it? And what "thunder" are you talking about? What's truly sad here is that nobody's even talking about what the other 50+ founders/ signers of the Constitution, as though 3 of them are the arbiters of all truth. So what we have is 3 of them who would consider your definition of separation tortured, and 50 who would laugh at it. Rad

11-06-2002, 11:29 PM	#147
Buffman Beloved Deceased Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: central Florida Posts: 3,546	Toto Since he had previously talked about the uselessness of churches, I think that this sentiment is one that could be derived from his Autobiography, but is probably not a quote. Thanks. I read that in his Autobiography which I found to be exceedingly dull and rather disjunctive; and why I called it a nightmare read. (Not only the lack of meaningful/ interesting historical content; but the side trips into seemingly personal irrelevancies.) I suspect that a number of these great men were extremely concerned with the verdict of history concerning their lives. (They did not lack for egos.) Washington, Jefferson, Adams, Franklin, Madison and many others of those days seemed to go to great lengths to massage their own histories. But then, the "not-so-great" men of our era seem to be caught up in the same desire for a historical posterity of their own creation/design. I am afraid I do not hold with making up attributed quotes by anyone for any reason. Either Franklin said, or published, those exact words or he didn't. Since most of the non-theist Web pages seem to delight in attributing that quote to Franklin, I can only accuse them of doing exactly the same thing that Barton and his followers/supporters are doing...lying...even if unknowingly doing so. (IMHO, they have a responsibility to confirm the quotes they use. I have learned that lesson from using some of George Seldes quotes that are in error...like the the LaFayette one.) Therefore, until someone can supply me with, or I can find, that exact quote at its original source, I will continue to consider it bogus. (I'm the one that has been chasing the attributed, but unconfirmed, Lafayette quote for over three years. That is another one that is found on many atheist quote sites. I have notified around half-a-dozen of them that I believe the quote is bogus as it appears on their sites.) If I had to make a guess at what has happened is that someone correctly found the one quote in the 1758 issue of the "Poor Richard Improved" and someone else saw that attribution and assumed it was correct for the other "supposed" quote...and we may be the first to actually attempt to run it to ground...if possible. Just plug that entire quote into a Google search and you will see how many people are using it.

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