AtlanticCitySlave

Well, the obvious reply is the creationist often thinks s/he is being scientific.

GeoTheo

Evolutionist or no,I have strong disagreement with the implications of some of your statements here.
I think your views on obesity, drug addiction and mental illness say more about your liberal social viewpoint than hard scientific facts. Run to it's logical conclusion, you are saying that people bear no personal responsibility for any of the consequences of their actions.
You are not saying that people should be sensitive to others who may struggle with these issues, on the contrary you seem to be saying in all cases these people are merely victoms of their genetics.
This is the kind of mentality that seeks to let all violent criminals off the hook with "not guilty by reason of insanity pleas."
Surely no healthy person would do such a thing. such as kill another human being. He is merely a victom. Everybody is a victom. You also seem to imply that the study of genetics is a panacea, that will soon solve all of humanity's problems given enough time. All unsupported.
Is it perhaps possible that the fact that some people are prone to obesity due to genetic factors and that others, perhaps the majority, are obese due to overindulgance and or a diet too rich in simple carbs? Is it possible that wheras certian people may be genetically PRONE to addictive behaviors-they still do bear personal responsibility in their addiction( with the exception of addictions started in the womb)?
Is mental illness 100 percent understood to be totally from organic and therefore genetic causes?
Could there be cases where personal responsibility plays a part and other cases where an organic factor is the overriding cause?
If it is not fully understood how can blanket statements be made either way?
I have known several serious drug addicts personally (heroin, alcahol, crack, crystal meth).
My Father and also believe that we both have a possible genetic predisposition to alchaholism. Does that make us happless victoms of our genetic fate? No, We have decided to make concious decisions to abstain from alchahol. We believe We have addictive personalities. My Grandfather died a severe alcaholic. His stepfather was also an alchaholic, so he had possible social as well as genetic factors.
As a teenager and young adult I found I that I had a natural built in high tolerance level for alcahol. I could impress my friends by not only how much I could drink but how fast. I once consumed so much beer once when I was in the Army that when I never woke up the next day for PT and was hauled the hospital by my squad leader to get my blood alcahol tested, I blew a .20. Nearly three times the legal limit for driving. This was 0900 hrs. It had been eight hours since I had passed out in my room after blacking out and stripping in the hallway scattering a trail to my room in the barracks. The liver can metabolize the equivelent of one serving of alchahol an hour.
That means that my blood alchahol level had probably approached fatal porportions the night before. I was charged with being drunk on duty and stripped of 3 months pay and assigned extra duty.
I'm glad I realized that I was being an idiot and that I should quit drinking and not that I was a victom of both my genetics and an uncaring system.
I realized that I always drank to excess whenever I toook a drink and showed the signs of becoming an addict. I am glad I never got into a victom mentality.
Years later I volunteered at a Christian drug rehab center for New Christians in New York city who wanted a new life in Christ and who needed to get away from life in the streets for a year in order to start a new life.
It was through Manhattan Bible Church which had a kitchen open to hungry people. People who often sold their foodstamps for illegal drugs and were therefore hungry, despite our wellfare system.
There were evangelistic meetings were people could accept Christ. Transformation Life Center was a year long Bible Camp for people struggling with "Life controlling sins" like addiction.
There the men recieved free GED and vocational training as well as daily Bible classes.
I lived there amoung my brothers in Christ for 3 months.
Formerly Street people, ex-cons, addicts some HIV positive, some with AIDS, some with hepatitis.
People with track marks all over them, some had spent more time in jail than out. Some had committed murders and turned to drugs to drown out guilt. But they were empowered. Not because of a victom mentality. That had trapped them.
They were empowered because they had taken responsibility for the state of their lives realized their helplessness to overcome it on their own and surrendered their lives to Christ.
90% success rate for graduates of the program.
I became close friends with a man who turned 16 in Rikers Island Penitentiary hadcuffed to a hospital bed, wounded from bullets and convicted of attempted murder of a police officer.
He spent the next 12 years in prison. The next 6 outside as a criminal untill he ended up living on the streets addicted, collecting cans. The victom mentality got him kicked out of the camp twice for violence. Where he ended up on the street again, untill he took responsibility for himself and graduated the program an later went on to Bible College and graduated with honors. He is now a Pastor.
The director of the camp was a former mafia goon, who ended up heroin addicted. He bcame no good to the mafia after he whittled down from 245 lbs to 140. The former tough Guy ended up selling his body for sex in echange for drugs. He escaped the victom mentality. Though afflicted with hepatitis he was able to straighten his life out and marry and have kids and serve in the ministry.
His brother, I guess stayed a victom. He is a methadone junkie, a government subzidized addict.

scigirl

Implications which you made for me, and which are incorrect.
No, this post was not intented to discuss how we resolve these problems, rather, to discuss what causes them. Obviously you have to know how something is caused to fix it, but the solutions to these problems are going to be complex and multifaceted. NOTE-I was not arguing for genetic predeterminism (which you seem to think that I am), I was arguing AGAINST the fundie view that everything is because of sin, or lack of prayer.
Where do you get off assuming I believe that?

Your post illustrates my point even more. Scientists such as myself try to look at human behavior, and the human brain, from a scientific point of view (our behavior is in part determined by our genetic and evolutionary history, our brains are a biological organ, not some magical thing), and you immediately think I want to let murderers out of jail.

All I am saying is. . . if we want to fix the problems that have plagued humanity for centuries, we need to replace some of the mythological explanations for some more logical and scientific ones. The fact that murderers are a product of, say, a bad upbringing is also a biological (or scientific) explanation. This in no way justifies the behavior - do you understand the difference?

Say I'm a doctor and I diagnose someone with liver cirrhosis. I tell them, "Your liver is ruined because of alcohol." What did I do - I provided my patient with a biological explanation as to why their liver failed. Nobody would call me a "product of a liberal society" for making that diagnosis. This diagnosis has absolutely nothing to do with the morality of drinking, or livers, or anything else. It is just a statement of fact.

Now I just want people to start looking at facts about the human brain. That's all. Certain religions have thwarted or prevented these efforts for long enough - it's time to give scientists a turn to help diagnose our livers again, instead of trying to cast out (IMHO) non-existent demons.
The problems with the legal system are a separate issue - and people use religion just as much as an excuse for abusing and killing their children just as much as they use "science, " if not more.

The rest of your post, which I'm glad you shared with me (I too have a genetic predisposition to alcohol abuse), does not really refute my point, rather it refutes some strange implications of my point which you incorrectly inferred.

scigirl

[ July 24, 2002: Message edited by: scigirl ]</p>

GeoTheo

Well fair enough. Sorry If I have mischaracterized your view. As I read your post it seemed you were rejecting a blanket diagnosis of sin being the root cause of obesity, addiction and mental illness for a blanket diagnosis of genetic factors. Depending on your definition of sin, I believe that it too can be included in a list of possible scientific causes.
A proffessor in Bible college equated sin with the law of deminishing returns which also relates it to addiction.
Generally behaviors that can be addictive create a high state of arousal in the brain. This in turn leads to an increased desire for the behavior.The problem is that to achieve the same state of arousal again the behavior needs to be increased in intensity again and again. But the law of deminishing returns causes the amount of pleasure to go down each time. All addictive behaviors act upon this principle. The crack addict requires more and more Crack to achieve the same "high" until eventually no amount will bring the same level of pleasure and the person not only can't get high like he used to, he becomes dependant due to withdrawl symptoms that increase porportionally in intensity also.
Interestingly addictive behaviors often our things that initially repulse the body. Like that first cigarette that makes you cough and feel ill. Later it gives you a "buzz" and later it becomes required to cope with daily life.
Generally sins listed in the Bible act on these same principles. Acts that bring instant gratification but usually long term consequences.
Virtues are listed as things that relate to delayed gratification or a higher purpose that does not directly gratify the self but benefit others.
Sins of the flesh vs. fruits of the spirit.
fleshly lusts seek instant selfish gratification fruits of the spirit a higher altruistic purpose.

GeoTheo

The law of deminishing returns can even relate to obesity. Not only in the case of food addiction but also food allergies. People may subconciously be drawn to foods they are actually allergic to. Foods that actually make them ill but at the same time give them a little buzz. This can cause people to retain water and metabolize too much fat to store the antigens in the fat.
When trying to eliminate possible food allergies, allergists say to start with the foods you crave the most. They are the likely culprits.

scigirl

I think that is actually true about food intolerance, not a true "allergy."

<a href="http://my.webmd.com/content/article/1680.50303" target="_blank">http://my.webmd.com/content/article/1680.50303</a>

scigirl

scigirl

It's ok.

Well as an atheist, I doubt I have the same definition of "sin" that a Christian does.

When I read the bible, I find a bunch of "sins" that are not as easily categorized as you make it sound. And aren't all sins equally abhorrent in the eyes of God? There's homosexuality (I believe this to be normal, NOT a sin), there's eating shellfish, there's not honoring the sabbath, there's murder, there's adultery, etc, etc.

And this so-called "law of deminishing returns," in regards to drug addiction, has a completely biological cause - the recpetors get down-regulated!

What that has to do with biblical "sin" (and which "sins" you refer to"), I really can't tell.

I think you are dramatically over-simplifying the addiction issue here. While there are definitely similarities between a crack addict, and a gambling addict, clearly there are important biological and sociological differences as well.
How about sex, food, and money? Cigarettes make you cough at first because you have functioning lungs - later they don't make you cough because you have destroyed many of your cilia. I fail to see how this fact proves your point.

Sure, lots of things have that feature. I hesitate to call anything a sin just because it gives you instant gratification but could have long term consequences. Snowboarding for example - could leave you paralyzed. Is it a sin?

Do you really think that human desires can be neatly classifed into these categories?

And what is wrong with wanting to seek instant selfish gratification, if you aren't hurting anyone? Is it wrong for me to get a massage? It isn't helping "better humanity"?

I think selfishness is sometimes a good thing - but I suppose that's a topic for moral foundations.

My problem with using the bible as a guide for our problems, is that I disagree that some things are even problems. Homosexuality for instance. Or pre-marital sex. (two topics I believe Jesus himself didn't dwell upon much, or at all!) From a scientific AND a humanistic point of view, it's really hard to see why being gay, or having sex before marriage, is "wrong."

scigirl

Bubba

This is getting off of the topic, and as a moderator you may delete the post if you wish...But...

I think looking at people from a scientific viewpoint and trying to help them is important, and I think you are correct to call fundamentalist Christianity/Islam/Judaism/etc. to task for an often dogmatic approach to peoples problems.

We have a 16 year old girl from my church who happens to think that she is pregnant. I think that it would be much better to try to help her through her problems and look at the situation with compassion than to apply the TRADITIONAL dogmatic "your a sinner and going to hell.."

Ironically, a lot of people are very concerned about this gal, but she is I think a little bit afriad of coming around because she is afraid of what people will think. I don't condemn her in the least...

As for your post on Homosexuality, I would like to know more about the science behind the causes of it. I myself think that there may be multiple scientific and social causes. I know the jury may still be out on some of the scientific issues, but the brother of a good friend is gay and he has honestly never been attracted to women a day in his life. Sounds more like a genetic F. U. than it does willful sin...

The whole thing about the predisposition to alcoholism makes absolute sense. I've known a few people who couldn't stop drinking if they tried...

Bubba

GeoTheo

I think homosexuality operates the same way as addiction.
The conventional logic is that why would anyone choose to do somthing like that unless they were born that way? That is because people see all the pian and persecution homosexuals suffer. Also most heterosexuals find it repulsive.
So the view that it has a genetic cause is very prevalent today.
I don't buy it. In societies where it is more accepted it is more prevalent so how can it be genetic? In ancient Rome and Greece it was almost Universal. "Women for babies and a man for pleasure" was a common saying.
If it did operate on the same principle as an addiction it would explain how it is difficult to change as a behavior, even in people who desire to and how there is such a strong drive for it.
Sounds like addiction to me.

Bubba

Geo-I think that the point of the thread is that some addictions have an inborn tendancy that could be explained through natural biological means.

As I said in my previous post, I think Homosexuality has multiple causes. Sometimes I think just random experimentation can cause someone to decide they like the same-sex person more than the opposite sex.

As I've said in a few previous posts, I'm into cars. One of my friends (half my age, actually) is a guy named Don. Don and I used to hang out and do automotive things together before he went into the Army, and his girlfriend was a little bit on the "wild" side. As time went on she started doing some pretty crazy sexual experimentation with other girls and eventually ended up leaving Don for another girl.

I think in her case, it was probably just curiosity rather than an inborn tendancy. Your remark about ..."a woman for babies, a man for pleasure..." and the predominance of homosexuality in other cultures would reinforce this type of sexual identity in my mind.

But just as not all homosexual tendancies or attractions can be traced to natural, biological means I think that some can...

Bubba