Annabel Lee

I'd still like to come back as a bi-sexual Gnostic Christian currently living in a group family situation with 2 wives and 3 husbands in Idaho.
Former nun, can't forget that part.

seebs

It's funny. There are folks hanging out here who have been banished for making jokes about religion, which is serious, but I guess we're the ones who think that it's too serious *not* to tell jokes.

mfaber

Actually I did say so and here is it, if you want to read my explanation:

PART I: (Post # 27) Adam and Eve? : The Inheritance of Sex or Why Men Have Nipples ( Proves Adam and Eve NEVER existed )

PART 2: (Post #21) The Biblical Adam and Eve Never Existed ---The Genetic Evidence

Badfish

And you should add that your in a biker gang, and you enjoy your butch haircut and mustache, because you are also a transexual too, but are not quite finished with the hormone treatments.

And ouch, Idaho hits a little too close to home, can't you make it Arkansas or something. Do you think we are hillbillies up here? Well yeah I guess we are, maybe you should make it Utah, and tell them you are also a descendant of Joseph Smith.

Badfish

Yeah I remember the nipple thing, but I think we chalked that up to the fact that they are attractive, and God wants us to be attractive, I think we would look funny without nipples, also I think that we established that it was perfectly natural and didn't imply anything out of the ordinary.

"Male nipples aren't exactly a genetic glitch: they are evidence of our developmental clock. In the early stages of life from conception until about 14 weeks, all human fetuses look the same, regardless of gender. At the tender age of 14 weeks post-fertilization , genetically-male fetuses begin to produce male hormones including testosterone. These hormones turn the androgynous fetus into a bouncing baby boy.

Here's where the developmental clock comes in. By 14 weeks, when the hormones turn on, the nipples have already formed. So, while our male fetus goes on to become a baby boy, he keeps his nipples, reminding all of us that people, male and female, started off the same way."


A Moment of science

mfaber

A "Moment of Science" is about all your fundie gender hierarchist males first, females just knock-males bullshit can stand. As usual you avoid the issue and post a blurb that is NOT a complete description of the process. Here's the COMPLETE, unedited embryological and genetic history.....

The GENETICS of Sex Determination

[size=2.5]Adam and Eve? : The Inheritance of Sex or Why Men Have Nipples ( Proves Adam and Eve NEVER existed!)[/size]

The Bible claims that God created Adam first and that Eve is just a "knock-off", inferior male (a rib). The creation of Adam "first" and Eve created from a minor part of the male has been the foundation of the Abrahamic patriachial system that has used this "scenario" for centuries to justify discrimination against women (the "weaker" vessels). But does science support this "male first" and women as just "inferior men" (made from a part)? The answer is NO on both counts.

Background Information
All humans have 46 chromosomes or 23 pairs (known as a karyotype)
More info on Chromosomes

These pairs are divided into 2 groups. Group 1 comprises 22 of the 23 pairs and are called autosomes. Each pair contains a chromosome inherited from the father and mother. Each pair of chromosomes contains genes coding for the same things and what this means is that one gets 2 copies of the same information for each characteristic (each gene or set of genes coding for a particular characteristic has a "back-up" copy). The average chromosome contains ~3000 genes that designate function, development or growth.

The last pair are called the sex chromosomes because they contain the majority of the genes that determine sex. This pair is unique because unlike the other chromosomes, there are two different types of chromosomes known as the X-chromosome and the Y-chromosome. The X chromosome is a very large chromosome that contains genes essential to life in addition to playing a role in sexual detemination. The presence of two X-chromosomes results in a female, whereas an X and a Y chromosome produce a male. The Y-chromosome is are very interesting chromosome and will described in more detail.

The Y is the smallest chromosome and it's presence is required for male sexual differentiation (the presence of a X and a Y-chromosome produce males). The Y contains only 20 genes that are involved in 3 functions:[list][*]1) 9 of the gene match genes on the X (otherwise the Y would be lost during meiosis because it couldn't "pair" with X)[*]2) 11 genes are involved with the following:

• -----a) Male fertility--defects here produce low sperm counts
  -----b) "Male-determining" function (the mapping of the testis-determining factor or the "male-determining genes" to the SRY region took scientists more than 50 years to accomplish and are highly conserved. The function of SRY genes is to arrest the formation of embryonic tissue (Mullerian) into ovaries and halt the degeneration of the Wolffian ducts and turn them into testes that produce testosterone, needed to masculinize the fetus.

Because the rest of its DNA doesn't code for anything and readily acquires mutations, the Y has been referred to as a "genetic junkyard" . This is not as pejorative as it sounds because the variablity of the Y chromosome has proved tremendously valuable in tracing patrilinear lineages that have yielded some surprising results:

Y and Mighty (migration, populations)

Use of Y-Chromosome Variation to Study Populations and Migration


The GENETICS of Sex Determination

It is the inheritance of sex that is important to this discussion so the autosomes will be ignored for the moment.Let's look at this process in more detail. It is the variations from the "normal" conditions that are the most informative:

Combinations of Sex Chromosomes and Genetic Abnormalities Affecting Embryonic Sexual Development

• 1) XX----- Normal female
• 2) XY------Normal male
• 3) XO-----Abnormal female with Turner's syndrome ovaries nonfunctional and must be treated with female hormones to achieve and maintain sexual maturity.
• 4) XXY----Abnormal male with Kleinfelter's syndrome has small genitalia and other signs of feminization.
• 5) OY----This is a LETHAL combination because an X chromosome harbors genes essential to life. These vital genes have no counterparts on the Y. No flawed male from this combo, akin to the Turner's female in 3).
• 6) The "XX" male was is really a Klinefelter male. The SRY region from the Y was "translocated" (a piece of the Y recombined with the X) onto one of the Xs during meiosis of the father's sperm.
• 7) Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (CAIS)--This is the case where the genotype of the person is XY and should develop as a male. But there is a defect in another gene that prevents the testosterone from being "absorbed" by fetal cells so the fetus continues developing along the original programming with is to become a female. When the baby is born, it appears to be female. Because the tissue still responds to estrogen, the infant matures as a female. The problem is that there are no female organs to produce the amount of estrogen needed for full development so this condition is usually not detected to around the age of 16 because the "girl" fails to menstruate.

The Turner's syndrome and CAIS demonstrate that the basic body print is FEMALE, not male. Males are really "modified" females. It also takes fewer gene to have a complete male (remember that the Y-chromosome alone can't produce a male without the X and has very few genes). Consider the following time line in embryonic development of internal genitalia which arise from Mullerian ducts(female) or Wolffian ducts(male).[list][*]1) At 8 to 10 weeks, embryo has neutral gonads with two duct systems (Mullerian and Wolffian) joined at the lower end. [*]2)At the 13th week, gonads differentiate in response to germ cell invasion.

• -----a)If XX, no hormones released; Mullerian ducts develop into oviducts (Fallopian tubes), uterus, and upper portion of vagina; Wolffian ducts disappear without stimulation from testosterone. NOTE:The development of a female fetus DOES NOT require estrogen, but proceeds of its own accord (the "default" programming is female)
  -----b)If XY, gonads produce Mullerian duct inhibitor (MDI) which causes Mullerian duct to disappear; gonads produce testosterone which causes hierarchistsperm duct (vas deferens), and seminal vesicle; conversion of testosterone to dyhydrotestosterone (DHT) causes development of prostate gland.

From
Sexual Development in Humans

Note that the Mullerian ducts develop without any kind of hormonal stimulation and will continue to develop, whereas the Wolffian ducts (male) degenerate unless "rescued" from oblivion by the SRY genes on the Y. This is done by the factor MDI which first shuts down development of the Mullerian ducts. It is possible to interfere with the MDI and the Mullerian ducts will continue to develop. This is evidence on a molecular and biochemical level that the "female" body print is the "first" choice, not the second ("Eve" gives rise to "Adam" ) .

Oh, but what about the nipples, you might asks???.......
Men still have nipples because it is part of the "female" program. Some mens' breasts will produce milk, just as a woman's will, though most won't produce the amount that the average lactating female can---->

Read about the "Milkmen" here:

Why Men Have Nipples


Also consider that the oldest steroid hormone is not testosterone but estrogen! Think about it...................
Estrogen Is Evolution's Most Ancient Steroid Hormone

The bottom-line is that it isn't Adam's Rib, but Eve's Rib and what is "Eve's Rib"----you guessed it!! Testosterone. Genesis fails as a book of science again (the above facts alone negate the Adam/Eve story from the start.

The only reason the Adam/Eve story was invented was to give men a "justification" for discriminating against women (the "gender-grab", i. e., "God is a man, man created first" is nothing more than a blatant "power-grab"). I can see why such a thing is so beguiling. An accident of birth, i. e., being born male, automatically grants one power over 54% of the earth's population (female), without having to demonstrate any ability or talent for the role of leader. Furthermore, females, so he is told, were created for no other purpose than to serve him, again without him having to give any reason why he is entitled to such "service". No science involved in this Genesis story. Its real purpose is "justification" for a patriarchal power structure, by appealing to a conveniently invisible, inaccessible "Authority" (God), who can't be "called on the carpet" to explain himself.

Further references (difficult to easy)
1: Goodfellow PN, Lovell-Badge R. SRY and sex determination in mammals .Annu Rev Genet. 1993;27:71-92. Review.

2: Berta P, Hawkins JR, Sinclair AH, Taylor A, Griffiths BL, Goodfellow PN, Fellous M. Genetic evidence equating SRY and the testis-determining factor. Nature. 1990 Nov 29;348(6300):448-50.

3: Sinclair A. Related Articles, Eleven years of sexual discovery. Genome Biol. 2001;2(7):REPORTS4017.

4: Whither the Y?

5: Why the Y?

Men have nipples because the basic body plan is FEMALE. Females develop without ANY hormonal stimulation whatsoever. The purpose of the hormones produced by the male fetus is to shut down the AUTOMATIC development of the embryonic ridges into female genitalia AND to rescue the Wolffian ducts from oblivion which now become part of the male genitalia (they deteriorate without stimulation by testosterone). However, by the time all of this restructuring of the embryonic sexual ridges goes on, the nipples are already in place and remain part of the male anatomy.

ju'iblex

If you people want to discuss science and skepticism, then take it to science and skepticism. I would have split the thread myself, but the server just couldn't handle the size of this monster.

Badfish

OMG mfaber, thats some pretty good science there, but speculative. I especially liked the link about Evolution and why there is no reason for the nipples to go away, and I haven't had a chance to read all the links, did you post all that in the nipple thread at CF? Even though I personally would be skeptical, doesn't mean I wouldn't find it informative.

Ju'iblex, sorry, we will stay on topic, I have 37 sources to refute mfaber, but we should save that for the science forum, eh mf?

Hey something weird is going on, I had 702 posts (or was it 602?) anyway, and now have 543, whats up with that Ju'iblex? When threads are gone to the graveyard do post counts recount? Weird. \\Yep, I remember Annabel had like 400 posts and seebs had around 70000, and it looks like everyone is missing some posts...

At the Home theater forum, I have been a member for 3 years or so, and during the first year I was up to around 2600 posts, and I have made thousands od posts since, and miraculously, I am below 2500 now. So burned threads must take post counts with them.

Keeps the post whores in line...

Annabel Lee

Would it disturb your faith, Badfish, if you discovered that the human basic body plan was female?


As always, thanks Gladiatrix. I always learn such interesting things from you.

Badfish

I know isn't she a walking library, always impressive! I love her posts.

No Annabel, actually it wouldn't disturb my faith at all, simply because after Adams creation, all men and women develop in the woman, she brings life, God Bless their souls.... But OTOH, lets talk about why women exhibit masculine traits, oooops, sorry Ju'b, forgot, no science here. Hehe

so God didn't want to remove the nipples, I think my simple expalination that they are attractive to the female and can present some added sexual stimulation is sufficient, but Noooooo, thats not good enough for gladiatrix.


*EDIT* Damn, thats too many smilies, I removed some, man am I smiley happy?