Grumpy

Faux Christian

IIRC, the Bible didn't drop out of Heaven fully written. A bunch of mortals wrote it after being inspire to do so, so God really didn't have much control after he told so-and-so to get off their sorry rear ends and start typing! So I don't think it's a message from God, persay. You just either take it, or parts of it, or all of it, or you leave it.

The Other Michael

In other word, our finite minds may not be able to comprehend the message of the Scriptures but this is not due to the ineptness of the God who inspired the writings. It is due to our own ignorance or blindness to the message in the inspired texts. This is true even amongst Christians. They disagree over issues in the Bible and form various denominations which are polarized around their hermeneutic. However, you will find that all Christians agree on several central issues of the faith, such as : the deity of Christ, the inspiration and inerrancy of Scripture, the blood atonement, the existence of heaven and hell, etc....

The first part sounds like the usual lame excuse of "god works in mysterious ways", just trust us Sonny, we wouldn't lie to you, this is all true if only you were smart enough to see it you frail mortal, etc etc.

And the second half seems to ignore that some Christian sects don't hold to strict inerrancy, the existance of hell, etc.

But I suppose they aren't True Christians (TM) so they don't count.

cheers,
Michael

Undercurrent

Assuming this were true, how could any human utter it with any assuredness. Surely in order to determine the existence of a message, one must be able to comprehend it. On can not look at a text and knowingly say, "there is definitely a message, but I don't know what it is."

m.

KeithHarwood

Yes you can. Cryptographers do it all the time.

Peter Kirby

Hello,

Could you please provide the titles _and page numbers_ of the relevant passages by William M. Ramsay? I would like to look them up. Specifically, the passages in which:

1. Ramsay claims to have "discovered that the Romans held a regular census that began under Augustus and first took place between 23 to 8 B.C."

2. Ramsay claims to have "discovered that Quirinius was governor of Syria around 7 B.C. and also around 6 A.D."

3. Ramsay claims to have "unearthed a papyrus in Egypt that directed all who lived away from their homelands to return to return in order to complete the family registration."

I appreciate your help in helping me locate these claims made by Ramsay.

best,
Peter Kirby

sidewinder

Well, I see that once again our Christian friends have appealed to emotional arguments. No substance, no evidence, nothing. We can't understand the Bible because we are so filled with original sin and our hearts are so dark. The same old BS. My question was not answered. Do you not understand the question? The Bible could be a thousand times clearer, so that there would be no need (or at least very little need) for apologetics and bible commentary. It could historically accurate and backed up by nonbiblical sources. It would be so simple to inspire a clear message to all mankind. Look at how many great authors over history have been able to write books which are very inspiring and communicate clearly. Is your god not capable of the same thing?

Vinnie

I gave an answer. The Bible was written by men. Another person advocated the idea that the Bible is exactly what your question assumed its not. Some otheers might tell you that the Bible is inerrant only in regards to teachings on faith and doctrine.

This Christian claims the Bible is generally just a recording of God's actual historical revelation. Not His revelation itself.

The last figure I saw was around 33,000. But I think most of them do have one unifying aspect. Namely, Jesus Christ. I don't think the figure is as horrifying as it seems.

It generally starts with treating the NT docs (especially the Gospels) as historical documents.

That question is vacuous and fallacious. I think a lot of people don't question things (CHRISTIANS INCLUDED). Ergo, most just flow with the culture. I can't see how this could have any logical bearing on the validity of any religion though.

Actually, what I said already commented on that:

"I believe that God has been revealed through divinely-inspired writings over the course of history. Due to God's image in man's creativity it can be said that many human creations- including writings, art, and music- contain a measure of inspiration."

But where there are competing truth claims only one can be correct. That is why I I feel first and foremost God has been revealed through the Bible (assumes some sort of canonization process of course but not a strict one by any means).

You are running off into psychic assumption land now. How is it that you know my thoughts and why I believe certain things? Could you be over-generalizing or can you simply read my mind?

Actually, I said I believe it be a recording of a revelation of God because of a meaningful analyses (treating the NT as historical). I can't comment on the beliefs of other people though.

AIA: I understand your point. A discrepancy is a clear and demonstrated error where no alternative can be found. I agree if a viable solution is presented it can't be said to be a discrepancy. But the problem is solutions tend to get magical from time to time.

Vinnie

Vinnie

Hi Michael. Its good to be back here. Not posting much at ilj now I have a little free time to pop in more here and there. And I'm glad ODD is up and running too

Vinnie

Baloo

Two statements:

S1) Jon had chicken for dinner last night.
S2) Jon had roast for dinner last night.

Clearly, S1 and S2, taken together, are inconsistent. But let's say they were written in a Holy Book of some sort. Let's say we believe the Holy Book is perfect. So, we might conjecture that POSSIBLY Jon had BOTH chicken AND roast last night. Thus both statemnts are true; in fact, Statement 2 simply clarifies statement 1. Regardless, the contradiction vanishes. Praise God.

Here, everyone, try your own hand at these (it's fun for the whole family!):

*Easy* (the solution jumps right out at you).
S1) Jon is a God.
S2) Jon is a Man.

*Medium*
S1) Jon rode up on a horse.
S2) Jon rode up straddling a horse and the foal of that horse.

*Challenging*
S1) Jon, Bill, and Joe went to the tavern.
When they got to the tavern, the door was open; they went inside, and the bartender, from behind the bar, hollered "Howdy strangers, c'mon in!"
S2) Jon and Bill went to the tavern. When they got to the tavern the door was shut; a pretty lady walked down the sidewalk, unlocked the door for them, and as she opened it, she passed gas in such a way that the sidewalk shook. With the door open, but both men cowering in fear, she said "Howdy strangers! Go on in, and don't be afraid of little ole me". They went in, and saw the tavern was empty.

(Note - no copouts here - all statment pairs refer to exactly the same event, and are completely Perspicuous renderings of the event).

So, how did you do?

[ April 16, 2002: Message edited by: Baloo ]</p>