Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Gurdur · 08-25-2002, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mad Kally:

bye bye

You wish to claim you are Feather ?

That one was for him; I'm still otherwise in this thread, though your own entrance is a surprise. Or possibly not.

Feather · 08-25-2002, 01:31 PM

Gurdur,

I'll give it one last shot.

I have proposed that our "choices" are the results of aggregate quantum states of the various systems in our brains involved in processing the relevent data.

In order for "free-will" to exist, it must be shown that our thoughts originate, at least in part, external to the brain, or that a system of individual components is not bound by the same rules as the components themselves (I believe these are, in fact, two different ways of posing the same question; your mileage may vary).

You've claimed my reasoning (i.e. "assuming" that a system composed of deterministic components is itself deterministic) is bad; wrong; whatever.

That's fine; I can accept it. But you haven't given any reason for it.

You've simply asserted that complexity changes things (somehow) and appealed to your own authority. Neither of which is a valid (much the less sound) criticism of my argument.

You have no time for me? Good. Less time I have to waste in responding to you, then, as well.

Good day.

popeontheropes · 08-25-2002, 01:44 PM

to say that determinism is the way the world and ,all of it's inhabitants , operates is to say that there is , with out THE POSSIBILLITY OF doubt , a "god" or something like it. afterall if everything is pre determined , it must have been pre determined by something or someone and , consequently , must be driving towards an ultimate end . well, lets have it ...e=who did this and why ? what is the point.
why don't we live in random chaos ? determinism.
why did i have tuna for lunch which i mixed with a tomato from my garden and scallions from the market? determinism ??
why didn't i grow the scallions my self ?
determinism.
why don't i know what this is all about..wouldn't it be better if everyone knew what was determined to happen so we could all just quit fucking around and get it over with ?

i mean, according to determinism , there really only needs to be one human, just one who could then do everything there is to do and finnish it off with his or her own murder .
and , again , i want to ask...by what mechanism is it all determined. according to what plan ? if there was no free will we would function like a giant ant colony..like one single organism living to preserve it's survival.

i feel that the reason we have law and scociety and any sense of order is because of free will. if we were all unbound by societal conventions and the law , we would all exercise our own free will and there would be alot fewer people in the world because we would all be killing each other on a constant basis. we would live in tiny pods of people , packs , like wolves or dolphins and we would avoid each other whenever possible. like we used to...tribes...groups of like - thinkers..and we would wage war on our neighbors to get what they've got.

to me determinism is hog wash..we would not need the abillity to think ...our brains would carry no greater capacity than to operate according to instinct.
further more... who wrote the program we all follow ??? what is the point ? and do all o0f you who feel we are not responsible for our actions or the reasons we commit to those actions, do you all sit around wondering if you are gonna kill someone today ? do you go to sleep wondering .." what am i gonna do tomorrow ...ooooh , i can't wait to find out !!"
maybe though, just maybe , determinism is right , and the reason our world is so screwed up is because we are all clinging to this ridiculous idea that we can all do what the hell we want to do...i mean, iguess maybe my life is not where i want it to be because i am really supposed to be a hobo living in a box car. it must all be my fault..because if i were in my boxcar where i belong, everything else would fall into place and there would be peace on earth.
well , with that being said and the fact that i really think the world should live in peace, i am gonna go move into a box car so the rest of the worlsd can complete their priogramed mission.
i am really sorry that i have screwed it all up for you . please forgive me.

abe smith · 08-26-2002, 05:35 AM

Kiss me, Kally! before you go. Grandpa

08-26-2002, 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by popeontheropes:
 to me determinism is hog wash..we would not need the abillity to think ...our brains would carry no greater capacity than to operate according to instinct.

Don't you have this just backwards?

It is because you are a determinate creature that you have to think because thinking implies that choices are to be made with different consequenses.

If you could do things by intuition (your instinct) you would be free from the sufferance permitted to enter your mind.

No you are not a robot because you are in charge of your own destiny.

Kent Stevens · 08-26-2002, 11:41 AM

Quote:

to say that determinism is the way the world and ,all of it's inhabitants , operates is to say that there is , with out THE POSSIBILLITY OF doubt , a "god" or something like it. afterall if everything is pre determined , it must have been pre determined by something or someone and , consequently , must be driving towards an ultimate end . well, lets have it ...e=who did this and why ? what is the point.
why don't we live in random chaos ? determinism.

There are a number of atheists who also believe in determinism. Theists believe that things are predetermined except for an individuals ability of free choice. Seemingly God can not predetermine whether a person will choose him or refuse him.

Most theists do not believe in determinism but in free will. Theists usually believe in causality except for an individuals ability to freely choose.

Quote:

i feel that the reason we have law and scociety and any sense of order is because of free will. if we were all unbound by societal conventions and the law , we would all exercise our own free will and there would be alot fewer people in the world because we would all be killing each other on a constant basis. we would live in tiny pods of people , packs , like wolves or dolphins and we would avoid each other whenever possible. like we used to...tribes...groups of like - thinkers..and we would wage war on our neighbors to get what they've got.

These societal conventions and the law help cause our actions. As such they are consistent with the idea that what we do has a reason and has a cause.

Determinism does not imply necessarily a whole range of things. It does not necessarily mean that we are some sort of simple device like a VCR or a CD player. We do more than just passively respond to external events but also have an influence on the external world. Determinism does not mean that people are not necessarily without moral responsibility.

Determinism simply makes the claim that everything has a cause. Theists disagree with this because it suggests that God predetermined someone to commit murder. Atheists might believe that laws and societal conventions act as causes to deter crime. People should be held morally responsible to prevent future crime.

In terms of us our choices being caused by quantum events I would like to see the physical proof for this. People do not claim that the weather is unpredictable because of quantum events. I think that we are more complicated than the weather but we and the weather are unpredictable, not due to quantum events.

K · 08-26-2002, 02:05 PM

Actually, if theists thought about it, they'd probably find the idea of quantum events causing our choices more offensive than determinism. It would say that not only do we not control our decisions, those decisions are completely random. "Sinfulness" wouldn't be an inherent attribute handed down at birth. Behavioral consistency would be non-existent. Anyone could be Ghandi or Hitler with respect to a given moral decision with the result depending on quantum uncertainty.

If this were the case, things like behavioral conditioning wouldn't make sense. Or trust. Or integrity.

Mark_Chid · 08-26-2002, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by K:
Actually, if theists thought about it, they'd probably find the idea of quantum events causing our choices more offensive than determinism. It would say that not only do we not control our decisions, those decisions are completely random. "Sinfulness" wouldn't be an inherent attribute handed down at birth. Behavioral consistency would be non-existent. Anyone could be Ghandi or Hitler with respect to a given moral decision with the result depending on quantum uncertainty.

If this were the case, things like behavioral conditioning wouldn't make sense. Or trust. Or integrity.

Nope - thats not the way it works. There's no such thing as 'complete' randomness. Throw a standard die and you will never get a 7, a 4.3 or a 'C' - the number of choices are limited.

Quantum mechanics and Chaos theory both show us that determinism either does not truly exist OR taht even if it does, there is no accurate model of reality possible that is simpler than reality, so the future cannot possibility be predicted by any means whatsoever. Therefore there is no practical difference between a determinism based on QM and Chaos and genuine free will - the difference is utterly moot.

K · 08-26-2002, 04:22 PM

Mark_Child:

Chaos Theory only says that tiny perturbations in initial conditions of chaotic systems can lead to drastically different states in the future. However, the system is still deterministic.

It sounds like you agree that the output of a system with quantum mechanical uncertainty can't be predicted. While that eliminates determinism, how can you equate a system - one that exists as a superposition of allowed states and then takes on any one of those states when measured - with free will? Are you postulating that quantum decoherence will not result in a random value in an allowed state, but is instead controlled by the soul? If so, which souls are controlling the quantum states of particles which are not parts of brains?

Mark_Chid · 08-26-2002, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by K:
Mark_Child:

Chaos Theory only says that tiny perturbations in initial conditions of chaotic systems can lead to drastically different states in the future. However, the system is still deterministic.

It sounds like you agree that the output of a system with quantum mechanical uncertainty can't be predicted. While that eliminates determinism, how can you equate a system - one that exists as a superposition of allowed states and then takes on any one of those states when measured - with free will? Are you postulating that quantum decoherence will not result in a random value in an allowed state, but is instead controlled by the soul? If so, which souls are controlling the quantum states of particles which are not parts of brains?

Nope - the inability to predict something does not preclude that it is deterministic. Chaos theory shows this. Quantum Mechanics shows that some initial conditions are unknowable. Chaos Theory shows us that without perfect knowledge of initial conditions predictions for the long term are impossible for the vast majority of dynamic systems.

The Universe is a dynamic system with quantum events underlying it and is therefore unpredictable EVEN if it is 100% deterministic.

Thast not just 'we can't predict it' its 'cannot be predicted'.

Whether QM is deterministic at some level we don't understand (as Einstein thought) or not makes no difference to the predictability of the universe.

Chaos Theory shows us that the universe cannot be modelled by anything less complex than itself

QM shows us we can't even measure the exact conditions of the universe so a copy is impossible anyway.

Therefore the ONLY way to see the future is to wait for it - whether its deterministic or not is utterly irrelevent.

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08-25-2002, 01:31 PM	#102
Feather Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Gainesville, FL Posts: 1,827	Gurdur, I'll give it one last shot. I have proposed that our "choices" are the results of aggregate quantum states of the various systems in our brains involved in processing the relevent data. In order for "free-will" to exist, it must be shown that our thoughts originate, at least in part, external to the brain, or that a system of individual components is not bound by the same rules as the components themselves (I believe these are, in fact, two different ways of posing the same question; your mileage may vary). You've claimed my reasoning (i.e. "assuming" that a system composed of deterministic components is itself deterministic) is bad; wrong; whatever. That's fine; I can accept it. But you haven't given any reason for it. You've simply asserted that complexity changes things (somehow) and appealed to your own authority. Neither of which is a valid (much the less sound) criticism of my argument. You have no time for me? Good. Less time I have to waste in responding to you, then, as well. Good day.

08-25-2002, 01:44 PM	#103
popeontheropes Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: a rutt Posts: 24	to say that determinism is the way the world and ,all of it's inhabitants , operates is to say that there is , with out THE POSSIBILLITY OF doubt , a "god" or something like it. afterall if everything is pre determined , it must have been pre determined by something or someone and , consequently , must be driving towards an ultimate end . well, lets have it ...e=who did this and why ? what is the point. why don't we live in random chaos ? determinism. why did i have tuna for lunch which i mixed with a tomato from my garden and scallions from the market? determinism ?? why didn't i grow the scallions my self ? determinism. why don't i know what this is all about..wouldn't it be better if everyone knew what was determined to happen so we could all just quit fucking around and get it over with ? i mean, according to determinism , there really only needs to be one human, just one who could then do everything there is to do and finnish it off with his or her own murder . and , again , i want to ask...by what mechanism is it all determined. according to what plan ? if there was no free will we would function like a giant ant colony..like one single organism living to preserve it's survival. i feel that the reason we have law and scociety and any sense of order is because of free will. if we were all unbound by societal conventions and the law , we would all exercise our own free will and there would be alot fewer people in the world because we would all be killing each other on a constant basis. we would live in tiny pods of people , packs , like wolves or dolphins and we would avoid each other whenever possible. like we used to...tribes...groups of like - thinkers..and we would wage war on our neighbors to get what they've got. to me determinism is hog wash..we would not need the abillity to think ...our brains would carry no greater capacity than to operate according to instinct. further more... who wrote the program we all follow ??? what is the point ? and do all o0f you who feel we are not responsible for our actions or the reasons we commit to those actions, do you all sit around wondering if you are gonna kill someone today ? do you go to sleep wondering .." what am i gonna do tomorrow ...ooooh , i can't wait to find out !!" maybe though, just maybe , determinism is right , and the reason our world is so screwed up is because we are all clinging to this ridiculous idea that we can all do what the hell we want to do...i mean, iguess maybe my life is not where i want it to be because i am really supposed to be a hobo living in a box car. it must all be my fault..because if i were in my boxcar where i belong, everything else would fall into place and there would be peace on earth. well , with that being said and the fact that i really think the world should live in peace, i am gonna go move into a box car so the rest of the worlsd can complete their priogramed mission. i am really sorry that i have screwed it all up for you . please forgive me.

08-26-2002, 05:35 AM	#104
abe smith Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: springfield, MA. USA Posts: 2,482	Kiss me, Kally! before you go. Grandpa

08-26-2002, 02:05 PM	#107
K Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,485	Actually, if theists thought about it, they'd probably find the idea of quantum events causing our choices more offensive than determinism. It would say that not only do we not control our decisions, those decisions are completely random. "Sinfulness" wouldn't be an inherent attribute handed down at birth. Behavioral consistency would be non-existent. Anyone could be Ghandi or Hitler with respect to a given moral decision with the result depending on quantum uncertainty. If this were the case, things like behavioral conditioning wouldn't make sense. Or trust. Or integrity.

08-26-2002, 04:22 PM	#109
K Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,485	Mark_Child: Chaos Theory only says that tiny perturbations in initial conditions of chaotic systems can lead to drastically different states in the future. However, the system is still deterministic. It sounds like you agree that the output of a system with quantum mechanical uncertainty can't be predicted. While that eliminates determinism, how can you equate a system - one that exists as a superposition of allowed states and then takes on any one of those states when measured - with free will? Are you postulating that quantum decoherence will not result in a random value in an allowed state, but is instead controlled by the soul? If so, which souls are controlling the quantum states of particles which are not parts of brains?

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