Ion

The war in Iraq is Bush stealing oil.

You are growing in me, buckaroo:

I like playing with dense buckaroos from Lynchburg.

Send your friends to me, too.

debater10

You're right... just think about all those people who would have died if we had ignored international law and not gone into the war with Vietnam... oh, wait, I think it would have saved lives... but think about the lives that would have been saved if we had just aknowledged international law and not invaded Germany because it had not yet attacked us... oh wait, it would have cost lives.

You hold international law up so high. This is the same law that lets France be given full defensive assurance of NATO, not pay a cent for it, and complain about the actions of the country that is providing them with that defense. That is the hypocracy that you r international law allows.

Ion

Catching up, buckaroo?

The international law, should be more and more respected.

Bush should work under it if honest.

He tried to pull a fast one.

Ion

buckaroo,

since you are obsessed with France, let me baptize you from now on:

French debater10 buckaroo,

instead of plain:

buckaroo.

You might get confused over there in buckaroo country, without this, you know?

debater10

Alright. I'm calling end to this. You're now repeating points that you had dropped earlier. The fact is that you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. You have been told what to believe by what you read and what you hear. These opinions cannot have been formed by you because anyone who has thought out their opinions would be better able to defend them .

To put to rest the point that you keep ressurecting, Iraq is not about oil. It makes no sense for it to be so. On average, the US spends $50 billion providing defensive forces in the Persian Gulf but only receives $10 billion in oil. We are there to make sure that France and Germany get all the oil they need without worry. Also, Iraq has been given full control over the oil contrcrts, only one of which was given to a US-based company.

Unless you start making sense or providing evidence for your positions, as incoherent as they may be, I consider this to be over.

If it makes you sleep easier onight thinking that you "outdid that sily Bush supporter," then feel free. Quite frankly, I've stopped caring. I appreciate the fact that 400+ Iraqis are not dying each month. I appreciate that my country has the balls to take action for freedom even when its opposition is so dissuaded by money that it choses not to. Feel free to ramble on incoherently... I'm sure you'll reply to this with something about how you think I was out-argued, but like I said above, I've stopped caring. Maybe you will start caring someday.

Ion

What's wrong French debater10 buckaroo?

You started to grow in me...

Quitter, quitter, quitter!

Free Thinkr

Uh, can we lock this thread now?

Ion

Freanch debater10 buckaroo, is wrong here:
Exxon and BP produce to the tune of $45 billion in their first contract, more later.

France gets its oil from buying from Exxon, not producing it, and France is losing as opposed to producing the oil by a French company.

1) So, Bush's war is about this oil that Exxon produces.


Godbert showed 50 Iraqi casualties per month possibly due to Hussein, as opposed to thousands by Bush in three months.

Thus, Hussein needed 25 years to catch up with the few months of Bush mayhem.

2) So, the war is not much of a liberation by Bush.

Gawdawful

Just a quick point here: France nor Germany nor Russia found it necessary to veto Bush's invasion plans because Bush failed to even get support of a majority of the 15 members of the UN Security Council in spite Colin Powell's compelling speech.

Bush went to war against Iraq based on either faulty intelligence or just plain lies, against the will of the majority of the membership of the UN, of which the US is the host and charter member, and argueably its founder. Even the populations of the countries in the "coalition of the willing" didn't support the war, which tells me that deals were probably made with the leaders of those countries involving either US aid or loans or campaign contributions, or all of the above.

I never have contended that Bush invaded Iraq to take over its oil, but because Iraq is a strategic location in middle the Middle East, an oil producing region everywhere around the Persian Gulf. Iraq provides necessary space for US military presence in a volatile region, thus providing incentive to keep all of the oil flowing, not just Iraq's. So, in short, I think it was about oil, but not just Iraq's oil.

Bush, maybe rightly so, believes Islamic fundamentalism threatens the West, the US in particular, not just with terrorism, but in destabilizing the oil producing Persian Gulf states. Imagine Iranian-style theocracy ruling Saudi Arabia, Yemen, UAE, et al. Osama bin Laden has stated political goals that include getting more, much more money for the precious natural resources that they are blessed with. I think bin Laden believes the West, the US in particular, have exploited the Islamic peoples for their own profit. He's probably not completely wrong in that assessment.

How Bush went about this whole thing was what was wrong though. Circumventing the UN was wrong. Alienating traditional allies was wrong. Creating more hatred for Americans in the world, the Middle East in particular, was wrong. Lying (exaggeration, if you wish) to the American people was really wrong.

The problem with that is that there is a majority in the US still believe the propaganda, having either not followed the news stories since May, or choosing not to believe anything except what Bush says. Bush says "We've found them" referring to WMD, which has transmogrified into "We'll find them." and now is sliding into "They had WMD programs.", which is not quite the same thing that was used to justify the war to begin with, now, is it?

We (the US) are not the World's Policeman, nor outlaws, I would hope. This is going to take a long time to straighten out.


Warren in Oklahoma

Ion

I agree with the previous post by Warren, and I highlight these points which are also present in the thread: