Muad'Dib

Read a John Douglas book sometime. There are serial killers who are much more creative than the Romans. Crucifixion is a bad way to go, but not the worst by any means.

VivaHedone

Again: how would god sacrificing himself to himself save us from himself?

Koyaanisqatsi

ditto

Vorkosigan

You start off by saying that nobody can know anything, yet doesn't that instantly negate god?

Good to you again, Koy. Retirement didn't really suit you.

Vorkosigan

Giorgia

Hi, Apologetix!

I don't agree with your worldview one bit; however, I do somewhat admire your determination in coming onto this particular board and trying to confront some very highly-educated philosophical types.

I personally don't fit into that latter category -- I'm what I guess some would call a "weak" atheist -- not weak in my disbelief in your god, but weak in that I can't quote all of the great works of fiction and/or philosophy as can some others here. I'm just posting to your thread to say:

Apologetix:

..... To you, faith is the antithesis of intellectual integrity. It defies reason and instead relies upon what the person wants to know, what they "need" to know.

Giorgia:

Wow! Thank you!! What an absolutely splendid definition of how I feel about theists. I've actually never read a description written by an atheist which labels your beliefs more accurately or concisely!

Apologetix:

"What is a "hardened atheist?" One who has simply studied their faith and has based their faith upon what they have learned from studying and not from action.

Giorgia:

I must correct you here: Atheism isn't a "faith" to be studied, it is simply a realization that belief in mythological deities is false. Or do you consider "logic" and "reason" and "science" and "physics" to be faith-based?

On the other hand, I've found that people who share your worldview are the ones who have "simply studied their faith and [have] based their faith upon what they have learned from studying and not from action. "

Apologetix:

A hardened athiest is one who is not an athiest because they hate Christians, but they are an athiest because they desire to learn.

Giorgia:

Again, Bingo!!! I never set out to "hate Xians" (hate is something religious people seem to do a whole lot more than atheists, by the way). As part of my general philosophy of life, I only hate a very few people who have seriously harmed me in some way -- and I don't really hate them any more, as one must forgive and move on in order to mature.

I've known a lot of atheists, and I can't say I've even met a single one who "hates" Xians -- it is often, however, a matter of hating the outcome of Xian actions -- the Crusades, the Inquisition, the slaughter and enslavement of South America's indigenous population, etc. etc. You, as a believer, should be really familiar with the principle of "hate the sin, not the sinner," no?

Actually, that last half of your sentence has it backwards: I became an atheist because I first had an insatiable desire to learn "how things work," and one of the first things I figured out for myself was that belief in a deity did not jive in the real world with how things work.

Anyway, thank you for coming onto this board and starting this thread; it had been fun reading so far

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diana

Nice post, Giorgia.

Particularly this part:Now that you mention it, yes. What a perfect definition. The fact that a Xn labeled himself with it is the best part.

d

doodad

If Jesus is God then why don't the Jews and the Muslims view him as their savior like the Christians do? Sounds like some historical revision going on here. Jesus did the creation, did the great flood, protected the Jews as they crossed the Red Sea while being chased by the Egyptians. Gee, here we got Jesus, supposedly the biggest lover of all times, imposing terrible plagues and destruction on those nasty old Eyptians. Sounds like his father, the war god. Oh well, it's in the genes they say.

doodad

Maybe he's a fundie, one of those chosen few who know it all.
What else is left when you know it all and have rewritten the good book to suit your own agenda?

Treacle Worshipper

Apologetix, (cool handle, btw)
Most people have covered what I was going to say. (Ie. Biblical errors, other dying-and-rising gods.) However, I would like to add that as you seem to have received knowledge of god without "facts" or "proof", I have to conclude that you have gained your knowledge from revelation. Good for you. Seriously. I mean, divine revelation would certainly knock most of my questions on the head. Unfortunately, for those of us who haven't had direct communication with a deity, the questions remain.
(And I don't mean this to come across as rude. I'm not trying to be rude! )
TW

Deep Junior

As to my post on sacrifice... GOD is supposed to be 3 in 1. God the father, God the son, and God the holy spirit. According to the Christians, God the son was Jesus - who was the one that died on the cross to create a heaven for humanity (meaning that before he came to Earth and sacrificed himself, there was no heaven). This doesn't make too much sense to me...

As for the whole "pain and suffering" crap... it doesn't work. If I was Jesus, and hung up on a cross to die, I'd just close my eyes and shut off the pain; afterall, I would in reality be God myself (trinity). It's not like he didn't know it was going to happen before he ever bothered coming to the planet... the Bible itself tells of how he created "miracles" time and time again.

Maybe this is the missing link of it all... maybe ALL of us are God the son, but none of us know it til we're dead and gone...
afterall, opposites attract. This is starting to sound a lot more like the ideas behind Satanism rather than Christianity...

But, what do I know?