Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Kosh · 07-19-2003, 07:01 AM

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Originally posted by GakuseiDon
(2) "Devour all 42 kids"? The word used in the Bible means "to tear, to split". It is used in 3 other places in the Bible, and doesn't mean "devour" or even "kill" in any of them. In other words, as the Bible doesn't use the word "kill", we can't assume the bears killed them, much less "devoured" them.

Oh well, when you put it that way. Damn, it's a good thing that God of yours is so gracious!

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(3) The Bible doesn't say there were 42 kids, just that the bears mauled 42 kids. So there were more than 42. There is no mention of adults, so it's not like it's a kindergarten class. If you were out for a walk, and met a group of 50 or so youths who started threatening you, I think there would be cause for concern.

Neither does it ever say that the 42 were a subset of a larger group of kids. So you are reading something into the text which is not there. How convenient!

And of course, a loving, caring, omniscient and omnipotent God couldn't possibly have found a better way to make him safe short of having bears maul 42 kids!

Go YHWH!

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(4) How could even 2 bears maul 42 kids? Either the kids were very slow, or the bears were very quick.

So.... God is a Darwinist?

And hey, those weren't just any bears. Those were YHWH Bears (tm). In fact, what I read into that is that God must have transformed them into some sort of Super-Mauler(tm) so that they could get the 42 kids in just an instant! See how this self interpolation works so well?

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(IMHO, it is even more likely that the kids started tormenting the bears. This would be consistent with their behaviour towards Elijah). Anyway, it suggests that the maulings weren't necessarily serious. I suggest it may have depended on the kids themselves.

Now, in 1, you get upset with us for reading things in that aren't explicitly stated, and then you do just that in number 4! This is nothing other than an assumption on your part, designed to sooth your psyche as it tries to deal with a reality you aren't willing to accept.

Calzaer · 07-19-2003, 09:28 PM

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The youths do more than call Elijah "baldhead". They say "Go up, baldhead!" which, if referring to Elisha being taken up by God, means "go to Heaven". At worst case, they are saying "die"; at best, it is threatening

Well then. How's about we look at the actual verse then, eh? KJV style. Emphasis my own.

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23: And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
24: And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

Yeah, so the LITTLE children, MOCKING him, were a serious threat... and there weren't ACTUALLY 42, I was just exaggerating... and they were obviously ALL threatening him, it says so right there...

...wait, no it doesn't... oh well. Make it up as we go along, eh? Anything to make this tyrant have a better public image.

GakuseiDon · 07-20-2003, 02:28 AM

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Originally posted by Calzaer
Yeah, so the LITTLE children, MOCKING him, were a serious threat... and there weren't ACTUALLY 42, I was just exaggerating... and they were obviously ALL threatening him, it says so right there...

What were a group of 40+ children doing outside the city in the first place? No sign of adults. I think we can say that they weren't just a group of malevolent 6 year olds. I think it is likely they were a gang of some description.

What does "go up" mean, then, IYO?

Most importantly, why would Elijah curse them, and why would God send two bears in to punish them?

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Make it up as we go along, eh? Anything to make this tyrant have a better public image.

You started by saying that the bears "devoured" 42 children. Do you agree the text doesn't say that? Do you agree the text doesn't actually say any kids were, in fact, killed?

Doctor X · 07-20-2003, 02:27 PM

Allow me. . . .

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What were a group of 40+ children doing outside the city in the first place?

I am unaware of a discussion of relative curfew laws in the text.

Nevertheless, this justifies wholesale murder apparently.

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I think it is likely they were a gang of some description.

Yet this language is not used.

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Most importantly, why would Elijah (sic) curse them, and why would God send two bears in to punish them?

Because they can. The idea of "evil" or "just" in myth is rather unrealistic. It is also a counter-point to the previous passage, as noted above.

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You started by saying that the bears "devoured" 42 children. Do you agree the text doesn't say that? Do you agree the text doesn't actually say any kids were, in fact, killed?

OT Professor Thomas Thompson would apparently disagree with you, given he translated it as "eaten" in his book The Mythic Past.

No matter, I find it hard to accept that "maul" is much better than "eat."

Besides, it takes time to "eat" a child . . . first rip them, incapacitate them.

If we can "suppose" that these kiddies comprised the Middle East Chapter of Hell's Angels, I "suppose" we can believe Elisha did not bother to watch the consumption.

--J.D.

Calzaer · 07-20-2003, 07:30 PM

How many gangs of LITTLE children do you know of, GakuseiDon?

And I suppose you're right... the bears didn't eat them (according to the KJV). The bears just viciously mauled them, which is much less atrocious.

As for what "go up" means? Well, let's read the passage AGAIN, with emphasis my own AGAIN:

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And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.

Sounds like he was ALREADY "going up", wasn't he? Unless you want to say he was climbing his way to heaven?

Spaz · 07-20-2003, 09:07 PM

Christ dude, you're defending this? HOW!? It specifically says little children, not a gang of teens (when you said that, btw, it reminded me of west side story, but then they started snapping and dancing and shit and it wasn't threatening at all

). And if Elisha's life was really threatened couldn't YHWH have given him super speed to run away or somethin? I think that woulda be a lot more interesting, and cooler too, but YHWH is one blood-thirsty bastard. But c'mon, 2 bears tear the crap out of 42 little children and that's a good thing? Just give up and say "God works in mysterious ways" or something like that, he must've had his reasons right?

Asha'man · 07-21-2003, 04:16 AM

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Originally posted by Calzaer
And I suppose you're right... the bears didn't eat them (according to the KJV). The bears just viciously mauled them, which is much less atrocious.

A vicious mauling is just as fatal, given the medicine of the time. (Wrap it up in a dirty bandage and pray alot)

Jack the Bodiless · 07-21-2003, 04:37 AM

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Originally posted by Spaz
Numbers 31 has a nice story of Moses' army killing men, women, and children, and keeping the virgin women for themselves, etc.

...And it ends with the sacrifice of 32 of those virgins.

Yes, I've seen fundies try to wriggle out of that, but they can't. Those virgins didn't become choir singers or whatever, they shared the same fate as the cattle etc.

I don't understand why fundies try to argue that the Israelites would NOT have sacrificed humans. They indulged in the genocidal slaughter of captives, AND in blood-sacrifices. So why NOT combine the two?

contracycle · 07-21-2003, 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Calzaer
2 Kings 2:24. 42 children call Elija "baldhead". Elija curses them in the name of the LORD, and two bears come out of the forest and devour all 42 kids.

Dang, you beat me to it. Thats my favourite.

Also the bit where Lot tries to goive his daughters over to the mob to be gang-raped in order to protect the alleged angels of the lord, IIRC.

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Genesis 19
1 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;
2 And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.
3 And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.
4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:
5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,
7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.
8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.

Doctor X · 07-21-2003, 02:34 PM

He intended them to all read scripture together and think of pure things like bunnies and stuff. . . .

--J.D.

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07-20-2003, 09:07 PM	#36
Spaz Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: 6th Circle of Hell Posts: 1,093	Christ dude, you're defending this? HOW!? It specifically says little children, not a gang of teens (when you said that, btw, it reminded me of west side story, but then they started snapping and dancing and shit and it wasn't threatening at all ). And if Elisha's life was really threatened couldn't YHWH have given him super speed to run away or somethin? I think that woulda be a lot more interesting, and cooler too, but YHWH is one blood-thirsty bastard. But c'mon, 2 bears tear the crap out of 42 little children and that's a good thing? Just give up and say "God works in mysterious ways" or something like that, he must've had his reasons right?

07-21-2003, 02:34 PM	#40
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	He intended them to all read scripture together and think of pure things like bunnies and stuff. . . . --J.D.

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