I ate Pascal's Wafer

Tercel, Basically, God sent himself to be a human so that he could learn what it was like to be a human? Dontcha think an omniscient deity who created these critters would know something about their nature? Why was it necessary for him to come? If it was to restore unity with his creation, then why did he have to become human to do it? Couldn't an omniscient/omnipotent deity figure out how to do this without sacrificing himself to himself?

It may be wrong, but it can still be Biblical. The point is finding out what the Bible has to say about this, not about what interpretations might be true.

So once you die, if you are not at peace with yourself, then you will end up in torment forever with no hope for escape? How does this work? Why can't you reverse this after death? If it's reversible, doesn't this suggest that nobody is truly damned?

Sure, being good and what not is important. However, it's not necessarily the case that it's all important to salvation. The spirit of the OT suggested that somebody had to pay before sins would be forgiven. Even if the person lives an otherwise good life, somebody still needs to be punished so that he could be forgiven. Even though things changed when the NT came around, the spirit of the OT suggests that there was more to Jesus' death than simply uniting with humans. If Jesus died so that people's sins would be forgiven, then the NT is reconciled with the OT and the general spirit of the Bible as a whole can be reconciled.

Well, if one is arguing trying to argue what the Biblical viewpoint on a certain issue is, then one needs to have Biblical support for one's arguments. One can certainly pick and choose which parts of the Bible to believe, but at that point it becomes an individual philosophy and is no longer what the Bible actually teaches.

I don't know, what the early Christians believed is recorded in the NT, is it not? If that's the case, then it's up to us to figure out exactly what they believed based on what they wrote. You have one interpretation, and the protestants have another. You choose to use reasoning and pick and choose which parts you think are likely true (not a bad thing, it just doesn't follow Biblical teachings precisely), and the protestants cast away reasoning and try to accept as much of the Bible as they can as literal truth.

I can agree that it's better to believe based on the general spirit of what's written in the Bible, rather than following the Bible literally. However, when on follows the general spirit of the Bible, one must deny that it's the infallible word of God, and one must make accomodations for certain passages which might go against one's interpretation. This is not all bad, but it does go against what the Bible explicitly says (even if implicit support can be derived elsewhere).

Even though the protestants take the Bible literally, they are likely to know what the Bible explicitly says about certain issues. They don't arbitrarily discard parts of the Bible because logic tells them that those passages are wrong, so they are in a better position to say what the Bible states about certain issues. This may go against what you or I feel is the spirit of the Bible, but then again the Bible would say those things and such a view is not un-Biblical.

We weren't arguing the truth of various Christian interpretations, though. We were arguing what the Bible said about certain issues. For this discussion, it is irrelevant to discuss which interpretations are likely true. We simply have to discuss what the Bible says about the issue. If there is a point brought up that is not explicitly stated in the Bible, then the point should be supported by other passages supporting the spirit of the point (and should not contradict other viewpoints explicitly stated in other parts of the Bible, like the OT).

I don't have time today, and I'm going out of town tomorrow, but I'll read it over the week and get back to you on this later.

Well, in order to establish that the Christian god is not evil, then you would have to show that your interpretation has Biblical support. If your interpretation is not Biblical, then no matter how nice it is, it cannot be attributed to the deity illustrated in the Bible.

No, it's not irrelevant because if the Orthodox teachings are not supported by the Bible, then they cannot be attributed to the god of the Bible. The teachings may be derived from the Bible, but they are not dependent on the Bible. I'm not arguing that the teachings are wrong, but rather that they need to be supported Biblically before the interpretation can be applied to the god of the Bible, thus illustrating that the Christian deity is not necessarily evil.

-Nick

Tarnaak

Please keep in mind that the Scriptures speak of false teachers, prophets and the like. If a teaching does not coincide with Scripture, then it is a false teaching. This is a fact.

Many have manipulated Scripture to apply to their wanton beliefs, but doing so does not make their belief the truth. This is a fact.

A lot of what has gone on in this "discussion" is based not on fact, but personal belief that obviously has no actually base of information. This is a fact

It is a hard Truth to swallow but, Yes, you are destined for the Lake of Fire if you do not accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour. Christ spoke of the living, not the dead when he said, no one comes to the Father except through me. This is referring not only access to Heaven, but also to Prayer. This is a fact

Though Scripture speaks in earthly terms that we may try to understand, it is our Spirit that Scripture was written for. To interprete Scripture CORRECTLY on must be in the Spirit. One can not be in the Spirit without the Holy Spirit, which is only given of the LORD GOD through Jesus Christ. If you don't believe in Christ, you can not understand the Scripture. This is a fact.

Every contradiction, error or fallacy has an purpose;
That those that are not of the Spirit will not understand. It's written in Scripture. This is a fact.

It is my prayer that those who read this will seek understanding, so they too may enjoy the freedom that comes through Jesus Christ. This freedom can not be comprehended by anti-christs.

Christ said in Luke 11:23 "He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth".

There is no middle ground ...

In Christ's peace,
James

Tercel

No.
I have no idea where you got that notion from. If I implied it by mistake, I certainly didn't mean to.

Yup.

Because to be in unity with God we'd have to be of the same nature: either we have to be God or he has to be human. He became human so that we might thereby become God.

Possibly... not being omniscient myself I wouldn't know the answer. Perhaps the incarnation wasn't necessary, perhaps God could have contrived some other way to do things, I don't know. I just accept that God decided the incarnation was a good method and used it.

It is entirely reversible if the person does so. But in general I think current trends extend. The point at which you die marks no particularly special "decision" point, I believe character development continues after death as much as it did before. But people who lived all their lives hating everyone aren't going to magically turn around and become great people after they die - they're still going to be in the same condition, quite possibly made even worse if they are subjected to a constant feeling of God's love (which they hate) and/or complete knowledge of their lives including knowledge of the pain and suffering (and happiness and joy if they did any) they caused others.

Nobody is truly damned insofar as nothing external is stopping them from being saved: Only themselves - which is what damned them in the first place. It's possible everyone (satan included) might be saved eventually, but it's considered heresy to say they they will all be.

But surely the "Christian deity" is the God of Christians, not "the god of the Bible". I cannot accept that the God taught by the 2nd biggest (and oldest equal) Christian group cannot be called the "Christian God".

Tercel

I'm guessing this was directed at me. If it wasn't, then sorry in advance for the anti-preaching tone...

Yeah, some of them even helped write the Scripture:
‘How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?’ – Jeremiah 8:8

So when I teach that the presence of speckled branches doesn't affect the colour of breeding sheep, it's clearly a false teaching, because Gen 30:37-39 says so.

Actually, for your information, it is based on the writings of numerous saints and theologians over the past 2000 years and is a belief which has been widely accepted within the Church.

And if I take it, if I didn't accept him, your evil god would incinerate me for all eternity because he was infinitely offended in his omni-arrogance at my mistake? What a great chap. I'm just dying to meet this guy so I can have a personal relationship with such a lovely being.
And what if, through no fault of my own, I'd been born at a time and place where I'd never heard of Jesus Christ or this amazing god who's willing to forgo his sadistic desire to burn me eternally if I accept his suicide as atonement? If I'd never heard of him could I look forward to eternal suffering, or would he (in his not-so-infinite mercy) let me avoid this?

Tarnaak

Actually, it wasn't. But, if the shoe fits.....
quote:
-----------------------------------------------------------------
I'm guessing this was directed at me. If it wasn't, then sorry in advance for the anti-preaching tone...
-----------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Tarnaak
Please keep in mind that the Scriptures speak of false teachers, prophets and the like.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
**************************************************
Not sure what your point is here. I think you are quoting out of context though.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, some of them even helped write the Scripture:
‘How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?’ – Jeremiah 8:8
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
**************************************************
Again you are qouting out of context
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If a teaching does not coincide with Scripture, then it is a false teaching. This is a fact.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So when I teach that the presence of speckled branches doesn't affect the colour of breeding sheep, it's clearly a false teaching, because Gen 30:37-39 says so.
**************************************************
What exactly are you referring to? I was not specific. I only said "a lot". But since you bring it up, theology is a theory, based primarialy on what a person or persons THINK's something means. Information is based on the culture at the time of there exsistance, mis-information, or false data outside of the Scriptures. These things need to be taken into consideration is all I am saying.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A lot of what has gone on in this "discussion" is based not on fact, but personal belief that obviously has no actually base of information. This is a fact.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Actually, for your information, it is based on the writings of numerous saints and theologians over the past 2000 years and is a belief which has been widely accepted within the Church.

**************************************************
Ones final destination has nothing to do with God being arrogant, or offended. God (Father, Son, Holy Spirt) is Holy and Perfect and nothing that is not Holy and Perfect can be in his presence.

Before Christ, blood sacrifices were made to make man perfect in Gods sight. Otherwise, one would have had to follow God's Law to the letter. Knowing that man could not do that, God sent Jesus Christ as a mortal to be a blood sacrifice, to sanctify and make perfect all mankind. In keeping with the free will that he allowed us, it is OUR choice to accept Christ as payment for our sinful nature and let Christs blood sacrifice make us Holy and Perfect that we may be in the presence of God.

God has no desire to see anyone suffer. If he did, he would not have sent Christ. What you percieve as being evil, arrogant and offeneded, is actually a God of Grace and Mercy.

As far as persons not hearing of Christ; God is Just and it is his and his alone to make judgement. Scriptures say nothing about this subject, so it is not a subject we need be concerned with.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is a hard Truth to swallow but, Yes, you are destined for the Lake of Fire if you do not accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And if I take it, if I didn't accept him, your evil god would incinerate me for all eternity because he was infinitely offended in his omni-arrogance at my mistake? What a great chap. I'm just dying to meet this guy so I can have a personal relationship with such a lovely being.
And what if, through no fault of my own, I'd been born at a time and place where I'd never heard of Jesus Christ or this amazing god who's willing to forgo his sadistic desire to burn me eternally if I accept his suicide as atonement? If I'd never heard of him could I look forward to eternal suffering, or would he (in his not-so-infinite mercy) let me avoid this?
**************************************************
In closing, I hope (truley) that this has helped you better understand the message of Christ.
Just be aware, that just because one claims to be a Christian, and even if they truley believe they are, they may be giving false teachings. It may be because they also were taught under a false teacher or mis-information.

In short, and I repeat; If it cannot be backed up by Scripture, then it is not the truth. Seek and you will find, ask and the door will be opened to you....

Peace in Christ,

James

Tarnaak

It is not a "belief" about Christ that is needed. Yes, demons believe that Christ exsists.
Its a "Faith in" Christ being the Son of God and that his Death on the cross, the shedding of His blood will make us holy and perfect in Gods sight.

Bree

Emphasis mine, of course.

What you just wrote makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever. In your words, God sacrificed His son that we might not be forced into following the Law to the letter. Is this, then, a blank cheque? We don't have to follow the Laws because Christ died for us? Isn't that a bit too easy?

Furthermore, what of the poor unsaved souls that lived before the death of Christ? If, as you said, man cannot follow all of God's Laws to the letter, then does that mean all those people died unsaved? Or is blood sacrifice absolutely necessary for salvation?

Obviously God did have a desire to see someone suffer, since he sent His son to die in such a horrid and despicable manner. If He truly was uninterested in punishment and suffering, there wouldn't be Hell.

Okay, then please explain the two entirely different and contradictory creation stories in the beginning of Genesis. It's in the Scripture, so it must be the truth. But which is the "real" truth? If the Scripture is supposed to be our guiding light (since God rarely makes appearances these days) then how can God expect us to obey when the only tool he gives us is flawed and contradictory? Or is this part of "keeping the faith" as well?

Starboy

Excellent questions. Despite the vigorous tap dancing exhibited by Christians, no one knows. This is because no one can visit heaven or hell and live to tell about it. What can you say about people that insist something is "true" with no possible way to verify it?

Starboy

Yikes! Post 2000!

Tarnaak

The "two" creation stories are different contexts. Not two different stories.

Tarnaak

Actually it is throughout the Scripture what Heaven will be like...

Not being able to "verify" it is part of Faith (tapdance). It is when you activily seek God that he reveals himself to you (tapdance).
It is because God is Spirtual and we are Mortal that we as the Human Race find it hard to understand or get a grasp on (tapdance).

Must be that God has a liking for tap dancers