enrious

After reading some of the anti-gun hysteria, I just can't resist asking, "Won't someone please think of the children?"

Amen-Moses

The last event that prompted the removal of handguns in the UK was when a guy (NRA material I might add) walked into a school and blew away several 6 year olds.

Need I say more?

Amen-Moses

noli

What? Didn't she let out a proper Kiyop (kiahp)?

keyser_soze

As they said, it is NOT you, it really is just a strongly emotional topic for me. My sister was raped when she was 14. I had a friend of mine who was raped in high school. That was bad enough, but dealing with all those kids who had been molested really pushed my limit until I saw no option but to leave social work. Believe it or not, I was once a rather mellow guy...though I could be aggravated if pushed far enough. Now, it depends on the topic, I am easier to anger, but I apologize if you thought I was taking it out on you. I just have a sore spot for predators...can't help it.

To clarify, training first, then arm to suit. You cannot utilize a weapon effectively if you are not trained to do so. As to the position of shoot first, then ask questions...I'm trusting that the woman has figured out she is being raped or assaulted. But I think a woman is better off playing it safe and insure her own safety.

Sorry love, didn't mean to bite your head off.

keyser_soze

And for the record...yes, I am aware that I'm a bastard.

enrious

Excellent. So the guy in Japan who went in and stabbed numerous children at a school should be the final straw that leads to the removal of all knives from Japanese society?


Or what about yesterday, when a man drove into a crowded market, killing at least 10 and injuring over 40 should lead to the prompt removal of vehicles worldwide?

Yeah, that's a well thought out argument.

nermal

Fact is, resistance against an attacker is the most effective means of self preservation, contrary to well-meaners who used to tout "just give him what he wants." Also, the more lethal the means of resistance, the higher the probability of victim survival.

This is really the crux of the issue. Not whether or not a gun in the hands of a potential rape victim helps her survival chances, as it indisputably does.

Of course, the would be rapist could always choose to not put her in such circumstances, eh?

Arguments like this really piss me off. Not because I disagree with them, per se, but because they are so incredibly thoughtless and wrong on so many levels, and yet so ubiquitous.
The woman using lethal force to preserve her own life isn't punishing her attacker. She is acting to preserve her own life. She has no way of knowing if her rapist will wipe himself off on her hair and move on, cut her throat, or haul her off and torture her for several days. If she does not act to protect herself with the most effective means at her disposal, she is leaving those choices to him. She is putting her very life in the hands of someone who is about to rape her! Does his right to just punishment supercede her right to life? Perhaps in places like Austrailia (don't know) or Britain (the laws certainly imply it), but not in the US; at least not yet.
Never forget, the rapist has all the choices. He can go to a movie. He can masturbate. He can find Jebus. He can do anything but rape his prospective victim.
Once he chooses rape, his victim's choices narrow from an infinite number (do I eat pizza, take a bath, read a book?) to exactly two: "Do I retain the choice to live or die for myself, or do I abdicate that choice to my rapist?"
Punishment fits nowhere in this scenario.

And much less effective. When your very life is at stake, do you want second or third best?

Ed

xorbie

Well it seems like the collective lot of you folks have hashed out pretty much everything that needs to be hashed out... however I think that one thing does remain sadly untalked about: YOU DON'T HAVE TO KILL!

This means that, even with a gun, there are countless ways to stun or halt an attacker in the case of rape or any other crime. Quite frankly, I don't think anything "deserves" death in the capital punishment way, and certainly not anything short of murder (and rape is short of murder). If you see a guy with a gun come at you then yes, it is probably too late to whip out yours. However, if you see someone suspicious at all come at you carrying a weapon, feel free to take out your handy-dandy Smith and Weston and just point it right at his crotch. Even without that much training, this is easy. I don't know how many men would be willing to continue or pull out a gun at this stage. Muster up a little courage and say "don't move or I'll blow your balls off" and they probably won't. Then just back away.

Vandrare

i have never agreed with the "just give him what he want" option, and have been saying that a woman should resist and fight back... just not neccesarily with lethal force and a gun. and for the higher probability of survival with more lethal force - how do you back this up. do you have any evidence or figures showing that women who attempt lethal force in response have a greater chance of survival? perhaps if they manage to apply lethal force (like killing the rapist) ofcourse it becomes impossible for them to continue the attack, but attempting lethal force and actually applying it are two different things. just having the gun doesn't mean you manage to shoot the guy before he disarms you and turns the gun against you etc.

but this is a problem. it doesn't neccesarily help her survival chances, and could instead endanger her life even more.

this is very true, but i feel if a woman is able to escape without using lethal force by instead stunning the attacker or knocking him out, then i think this option should ofcourse be chosen instead.

ok, here i chose the wrong word for what i meant. i dont mean punishment (just using the usual old phrase), consequences would probably be more appropriate. and the problem is she quite likely isn't going to get killed. the original question was using a gun against rape, not rape and murder. the two aren't usually sequential.

a few quotes from the website link i posted: www.nononsenseselfdefense.com
"The good news is that the "jump out the bushes rapist is A) the rarest type and B) the easiest to avoid and prevent. The same measures that keep you from being robbed will protect you from being sexually assaulted in this manner. So the odds of this happening to you are pretty rare to start with and a few simple, commonsense measures will greatly reduce those odds even further.

Now, for the really good news, if you are not associating with a certain kind of people or engaging in high risk behaviors, the odds of you being raped plummet close to zero.

Unfortunately, that is the last of the good news.

The bad news is that the reality of rape is not simple. It is, in fact, a complex problem. And complex problems seldom, if ever, have simple solutions. An undisputed truth is that "stranger" rapes only constitute a minute number of rapes. An overwhelming majority of sexual assaults occur between people who know one another, sometimes intimately, sometimes peripherally, but it is someone you have regular dealings with.

That means it is not just a simple "crime" nearly as much as it's human interaction. That is where things start getting complicated."
.................................................. ......
"While you would expect guilt and shame from women who were raped, it is amazing to discover even more guilt and shame in women who avoided being raped.

And yet, we commonly see this phenomenon among women who conned, tricked or talked their way out of being raped. Apparently they are ashamed that they resulted to "Feminine guile" to avoid being raped rather than "Macha Bravada" and a blinding blur of fists and feet to beat the crap out of an attacker.

Simply stated: The "tough chick" act tends to shrivel up like a worm on a frying pan when faced with raw horror of pending violence.

There is a part of you that takes one look at the danger and instead of proceeding on a chest-beating act of defiance says, "Think fast, Rabbit!" Then you proceeds to find some way to wiggle out of a dangerous situation.

Congratulations, you just did the smartest, most effective thing you can do to keep from being raped."
.................................................. ...............
"Escape
The purpose of any physical engagement needs to be escape.

However, that doesn't mean dashing around in panic like a goldfish in a bowl trying to escape from the net. That sort of escape attempt actually encourages an attacker to keep on attacking.

We teach the "Fluffy the Cat" version of escape.

To best understand Fluffy, think back to the time you were sitting in the vet's office holding a cat when someone walked in with a dog. All of a sudden that small little fluffy kitty becomes a maniac with four wheeled buzzsaw drive. Or if you are really unlucky, having the bad luck to have a cat fall into the bathtub with you. In either case, you know first hand how much damage something small and dedicated to escape can do.

If you ask most police officers who they would rather face a criminal attempting to climb over them to escape or a drunk who wants to fight them, they will almost all say "the fighter." That's because someone who is attempting to fight you is going to do far less damage to you than someone who is dedicated to climbing over your face in order to escape. Also someone who is trying to fight you is predictable and easily overwhelmed. While people trying to escape in this manner are unpredictable and the more you try to control them the harder they attempt to climb over you.

Now often it is not possible to simply walk by someone who is attempting to rape you. Therefore powerful blows do need to be thrown. Not in an attempt to make him stop or to knock him out per se, but rather to clear a path for you to bolt towards the exit.

Amazingly enough, blows that are thrown while attempting to "fight" are often less powerful and effective than those thrown while attempting to flee. This is because when you are attempting to reach the door, your entire bodyweight is involved in the hits.

For women we don't advocate kicking, but we do advocate elbows and forearm strikes as you are heading for the exit.

And always remember, don't run from danger, run to safety."

once again, the problem with this argument at the moment is people seem to assume rape will quite likely lead to murder - but carjacking, mugging, and any other crimes also have to potential to lead to murder while mostly not - and lethal force is not accepted in these situations. suddenly put the crime as rape and people instantly cry that its you or him going to die?! this kind of rape is very uncommon, but just like many other crimes the slight possibility is always there. why is rape measured by different standards?

:-D Anna

Vandrare

if we really want to address the problem of rape and help women to feel safer, the emphasis here should be on prevention. there's lots of good strategies one can implement to greatly reduce the chances of being raped, and these would be a lot more effective than carrying a gun in your handbag.
anyway, it seems like a better idea to stop this before it starts, rather than ending it in violence whenever possible.

:-D Anna