Freethought & Rationalism Archive

SteveD · 05-25-2003, 12:58 PM

Goliath,

I had asked if you would elaborate a little on your definition of belief.

Quote:

Do you have any qualifiers to this definition? Such as, to make a positive claim without proof.

Steve

SteveD · 05-25-2003, 01:17 PM

Soul Invictus,

I think I may be behind by a couple of posts so I apologize if I do not address some of your points.

Regarding factual claims vs. value claims:

I regard a factual claim as being objective. That is, something that is independant of the thought of an observer.

I regard a value claim as subjective. That is, existing in the mind. Belonging to the thinking subject rather than the subject of the thought.

Based on these definitions I think a claim of existence would be a factual, or objective claim. The existence of something in reality would be independent of any individual's thoughts on the matter.

Calling the existence of god(s) a value claim would mean to me that god(s) exists only in your mind. I'm OK with that but I don't think it is what you intended.

Regarding your last question:

Quote:

What is a proper atheistic repsonse regarding evidence to make belief in a God present? (What would be necessary for atheists to embrace the belief that God exists?)(Why don't atheists believe in God.....I know the burden of proof is on the theists, but I'm asking why don't atheists believe in God(s)? )

These questions have been addressed in numerous other threads and I don't think that we should de-rail this one.

Steve

Bumble Bee Tuna · 05-25-2003, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Soul Invictus
True,

however with a factual claim, you can say you have no opinion all you want..it doesn't change the issue that the state is (meaning being.)

An example would be that in my earlier example, I used the factual claim that the US has 48 contiguous states. Your opinion can be no opinion, however this is an observable, proven fact, so the arena (the existence of 48 contiguous statesis factual in nature)

To follow with God, the value claim would be that "God is" or "God exists" or whatever similar to this wording. Your opinion can be none as well, however it doesn't change the issue that this arena (the existence of God) is not an observable proven fact. (Correct me if I'm wrong)

Would it be fair to say that atheists are of the thought that there is no empirical evidence to tell that God exists? If this is true, I don't see how the issue of God is a factual claim.

Not sure how this is relevant to what I was saying, but I'll respond anyway. For the God value question, let me reword what you said:

Your opinion can be none, because the issue in this arena (the existence of God) is not an observable proven fact. This is why atheists like Goliath don't have an opinion: There are no evidence or empirical observations to make, therefore one cannot have a rational opinion. There is nothing to base an opinion on, so the only logical course of action is to have no opinion. And of course, no opinion = no belief.

-B

Bumble Bee Tuna · 05-25-2003, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Soul Invictus
What is a proper atheistic repsonse regarding evidence to make belief in a God present? (What would be necessary for atheists to embrace the belief that God exists?)

Evidence.

(Why don't atheists believe in God.....I know the burden of proof is on the theists, but I'm asking why don't atheists believe in God(s)? ) [/B][/quote]

No evidence.

Simple, eh?

-B

Soul Invictus · 05-25-2003, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Goliath

And I'll reply again that this is not my problem! I am not--repeat not--trying to prove that a god exists! I hold no beliefs whatsoever regarding the existence or nonexistence of any gods, so why in the Abyss would I care about how one would go about proving that a god exists?! You keep trying to put a burden of proof upon my shoulders to prove that a being exists for which I hold no beliefs. Why do you continue to do this?You have babbled on about this for many pages now, and I have yet to see its relevance to your argument that atheism is a belief. I will not address this tangent of yours again until you explain its relevance.I do whatever necessary to destroy fallacious arguments. If nitpicking does the trick, then it does the trick. In a year, I will be a Mathematician: I always strive to say precisely what I mean--no more, no less.

If I destroy a particular argument of yours the first time, what does it do to bring said argument up again and again and again as though it carried the slightest amount of weight??

Goliath,[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

Goliath,

I am not trying to prove God exists either, however how can you ask me to prove God does not exist w/o having a concept or criteria for God. I asserted the God issue is not factual in nature. That is to the fullest that I feel that I am qualified and required to back up.

The burden is not on you, so why a question that would put it on you?
You addressed my misplace word choice; if that's destroying a total argument then you'll win many a debate. That's convenient to attack that segment of an argument and then when the wording is refined to not revisit it for its implied intent.

I didn't bring it up the argument again, either. You made your claim based on what I had already conceded I typed wrong.

Patronizing an argument that you don't wish to entertain is so conducive for discussion. Repeatedly you've made no inquiries into what I've said, so unless you like being nonresponsive, I'm just about ready to end this thread. I don't have time to cut/paste the same stuff over and over again to hear "OH that's not relevant" with no substantive reasoning to say it. That's like the atty who yells objection just to be doing it.

Soul Invictus · 05-25-2003, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bumble Bee Tuna
Evidence.

(Why don't atheists believe in God.....I know the burden of proof is on the theists, but I'm asking why don't atheists believe in God(s)? )

No evidence.

Simple, eh?

-B [/B][/QUOTE]

This is why God is not a factual claim.

Soul Invictus · 05-25-2003, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bumble Bee Tuna
Not sure how this is relevant to what I was saying, but I'll respond anyway. For the God value question, let me reword what you said:

Your opinion can be none, because the issue in this arena (the existence of God) is not an observable proven fact. This is why atheists like Goliath don't have an opinion: There are no evidence or empirical observations to make, therefore one cannot have a rational opinion. There is nothing to base an opinion on, so the only logical course of action is to have no opinion. And of course, no opinion = no belief.

-B

This is what I thought. I don't see how this does not reconcile with how I said claim about God are not factual claims and that God is not a matter of fact. There is nothing to base an opinion on. However if there were God would cease to be subjective in nature. This is why God means different things to different people. If there were empirical evidence God would be a factual in nature.

Goliath · 06-01-2003, 08:21 AM

Soul Invictus,

Quote:

I am not trying to prove God exists either,

I never said that you were.

Quote:

however how can you ask me to prove God does not exist w/o having a concept or criteria for God.

Because you keep asserting over and over again that it is impossible to prove that a god exists!! I'm getting tired of you asserting this and then acting as though you never asserted it!!

Quote:

I asserted the God issue is not factual in nature.

What are you talking about? It is a fact that either a god exists, or no god exists.

Quote:

You addressed my misplace word choice; if that's destroying a total argument then you'll win many a debate.

No, I have done more than that. For one, I have demanded over and over again that you:

a). Back up your assertion that it is impossible to prove that a god exists

and

b). Explain the relevance of your "fact vs. opinion" diatribe to the discussion at hand.

To date, you have not done either of these things!

If you are going to sit there and smugly claim that I have not addressed any of your arguments--when the exact opposite is true--then I doubt that this discussion can go any further.

Edited to say: If there is any kind of misunderstanding here, I fail to see where it is. However, I continue to wonder if there is some kind of misunderstanding, since I have never encountered an atheist who asserts something over and over and then refuses to admit having ever asserted said thing (that's something that I've only seen theists do).

Sincerely,

Goliath

Goliath · 06-01-2003, 08:24 AM

SteveD,

Quote:

Do you have any qualifiers to this definition? Such as, to make a positive claim without proof.

Yes, I should've added that qualifier.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Bumble Bee Tuna · 06-01-2003, 11:46 PM

Yes, the question burning in my mind is how your opinion/fact discussion has anything to do with atheism being a belief or not. Could you try to put it in a formal form?

1. some opinion/fact point
2. ...
3. ...
4. ...
5. ...
6. Therefore, atheism is a belief (or, isn't a belief...I still haven't been able to figure out what you're trying to say here, but have assumed you're arguing for the positive since Goliath is your opponent)

Could you try to do that?

-B

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06-01-2003, 11:46 PM	#140
Bumble Bee Tuna Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Middletown, CT Posts: 7,333	Yes, the question burning in my mind is how your opinion/fact discussion has anything to do with atheism being a belief or not. Could you try to put it in a formal form? 1. some opinion/fact point 2. ... 3. ... 4. ... 5. ... 6. Therefore, atheism is a belief (or, isn't a belief...I still haven't been able to figure out what you're trying to say here, but have assumed you're arguing for the positive since Goliath is your opponent) Could you try to do that? -B

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