dangin

But it is. In war, in self defense, and even state sponsored execution. And across the animal kingdom "assault and muder" happen so often as to be of little interest. As I type a predator is killing and swallowing the carcass of another animal. Not only that, but it is possible that the prey is the same species as the predator.

Why are humans in need of special protection?

Vylo

By murder I do not mean self defense. War is 2 sided.

Humans are sentient beings. Besides that, they are my own species. I feel the need to defend them.

Toto

Your profile says you are a positive atheist. Most people with a gut level opposition to abortion are Catholic theoretists or southern evangelical Christians. Most of the propaganda against abortion is thinly disguised Christian missionary work, even where it pretends to be based on neutral principles. This is because there is no rational basis for opposing early abortion. The fetus is not "another person" at 3 months.

It appears that you have been influenced (I want to say taken in) by some of this propaganda.

Vylo

It has nothing to do with religion, or propaganda. That fetus is human being trying to develop. I see little difference between them and an infant, beside their restriction to a womb. When you perform an abortion, you are killing a human.

In the case where a woman was raped, her life is put at serious risk by having the child, or the child has a crippling or lethal deformity, I can sympathize, as they did not make the choice to have any of those things happen. But when it was merely that the child would inconvinience them, that is simply failing to take responsibility for the action they chose. They chose to put themselves at risk. If I load a revolver with a single bullet and spin the barrel, then pull the trigger, am I not responsible for any consequences?

dangin

Tell a dead soldier that war is not murder. Doesn't matter much to them.

You are empathizing too much with your own species. You prefer that humans not be murdered, but you really don't have a reason why other than "I can imagine myself, and those I love among the victims and I am uncomfortable with that". Not that there is anything wrong with that position, it is commendable. But it is not a reason to do away with D&Cs.

dangin

Sure, but the act of russian roulette and a biological imperative like sex are not really comparable. No one has to play russian roulette. The vast majority of us will, if not have too, have sex.

Also, a child is more than an inconvenience.

A hypothetical woman is going to get pregnent unintentionally. It will either happen when she is 17 or when she is 25. The first opportunity she is a high school junior. The second she is a recent law school graduate with a newly acquired associate position in a law firm. Either time an unplanned pregnancy would be an inconvenience. But the quality of life that the infant can expect is massively increased in the later scenario.

Do you see the difference? Sometimes people aren't prepared to be parents, are you arguing that a child made to suffer a potentially substandard life is preferable to a first trimester abortion?

CJD

First, I would never presume to make such a decision for anyone on this issue, that is why I do oppose legislation that is, in Toto's words, a "grandstanding propagandistic attempt to impose some kind of limit on abortion . . . ." I emphasis "case-specific" for that very reason. This is why Vylo makes perfectly good sense when he/she speaks of defeding humanity. It is also Toto's following remark is utterly disgusting:

"The liberty and health of a woman are much more defensible than the potential life of a fetus, especially at the time most abortions are performed."

Who the hell do you think you are?! You've completely wiped out the obvious tension that exists inherently in this issue. You've found cognitive rest at the expense of humanity. You've lopped off your nose in spite of your face. No, it's not that easy.

dangin wrote: "Does this extend to all creatures of the natural world?"

Yes, of course. Does one take precedence over the other? Yes, of course.

CJD

nogods4me

So the child of a rape victim is less worthy of life than that conceived freely? Why? What has the child done that it is less worthy of living? You are abritrarily assiging more value to a fetus simply by virtue of the way it was conceived. What justification do you have for this?
What about incest? Is aborting a child born of incest OK?

As for the health issue, are you saying you would abort a sick fetus but not a healthy one? Again, by what system of values have you assigned more worth to the healthy fetus.

An as for the health of the mother, you would be willing to abort if the health of the mother was at risk, is that right? So you have also arbitrarily assigned a lesser value to the fetus than to the adult. How did you arrive at this conclusion?

At least we of the choice side of the issue have some consistency to our views.

Vylo

Favoring healthy babies over sick ones is a matter of natural selection, and compassion over the intense suffer that they would endure.

In the case of rape I have considered this for a long time and it is not an easy decision. I do not feel that the child will have an enjoyable life knowing from whence they came. I feel it is up to the mother to make the choice on whether or not to have a child born from rape.

simian

Vylo,

A fertilized egg is not a full-fledged human being. Hopefully we can agree on this. One day later it is not a full-fledged human being. I think you will agree here, too.

A new-born infant is a human being. A fetus 1 day before it is born is a human being. This I do not doubt.

The issue occurs somewhere between these tow ends of gestation. Somewhere (well, about 125 days) in the middle, the two meet, if you do a fertilization + 1 day + 1 day + ... and birth - 1 day - 1 day - ... The question becomes: when is a fertilized egg/fetus a human being.

I lean toward when consciousness occurs. I strongly believe that brain death is true death, so life (by symmetery) should begin when the brain truely becomes alive.

Simian