Freethought & Rationalism Archive

pariah · 01-27-2005, 01:16 PM

I'm not sure what I would do. Fortunately for all of us, your version of the situation doesn't exist, so we don't really need to know.

linox · 01-27-2005, 01:22 PM

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Also you accuse the Palestinains of targetting children, yet there is only a handful of cases were this could of even of claimed to happen

are you joking?

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infact there is a Jewish terrorist group ("Avenge the Children") dedictaed purely to attacking Palestinian children which has been responsible for the bombing and attempted bombing of several Palestinian schools during the present intifada.

unlike palestinian terrorist groups, the jewish one was stop and put in jail. and as far as i know, they didn't hurt anyone. they had plans though.

Trout · 01-27-2005, 01:29 PM

Sometimes I think this conflict is the only one that anyone really cares about. It is talked about so much while so many other equally violent, complex and hell, even interesting from a cerebral point of view, conflicts/issues are out there. Albiet it has important related potential ramifications and impacts on significant parts of the world but wow, it really needs a breather now and then.

Unless someone blows up the Dome of the Rock don't wake me....

linox · 01-27-2005, 01:31 PM

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Fortunately for all of us, your version of the situation doesn't exist, so we don't really need to know.

pariahSS, denying reality is not a good sign

schizophrenia

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Delusions - false beliefs strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, especially as a symptom of mental illness:

ZeusTKP · 01-27-2005, 01:32 PM

Whatever. This is absurd. Humans are absurd.

There's no need for war. Ever. We are VERY imperfect creatures. Our base instincts are totally incompatible with our intellect. We need to become something else than human. Humans are outdated and dangerous.

linox · 01-27-2005, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Sometimes I think this conflict is the only one that anyone really cares about. It is talked about so much while so many other equally violent, complex and hell, even interesting from a cerebral point of view, conflicts/issues are out there. Albiet it has important related potential ramifications and impacts on significant parts of the world but wow, it really needs a breather now and then.

maybe the reason it brings up so much hatred and intrest is because it involves jews..

i agree with you, one have to wonder...

pariah · 01-27-2005, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by linox

pariahSS, denying reality is not a good sign

schizophrenia

?

I can't tell whether you are being sarcastic or serious. (Obviously sarcastic about schizophrenia, but do you disagree with what I said?)

It's that damn winky smiley!

Alter · 01-27-2005, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by linox

maybe the reason it brings up so much hatred and intrest is because it involves jews..

i agree with you, one have to wonder...

I think it's more the religion thing, 3 major religions have their holiest sites in one place.

That's a big part of the US support, they want Jerusalem to be held by people with western morals. Can you imagine how upset the fundies would be if Jerusalem fell to Wahhabis or something like that??

Although there is definitely still lingering anti-Jewish sentiment, that probably has a lot to do with the European attitude. Suspicion of minorities that do well.

Rob0t X · 01-27-2005, 02:21 PM

i am happy that this thread has gone the way it has. hopefully there will be peace soon. hopefully the palestinians will have their own state, and hopefully the palestinians that are living in israel will be treated as full citizens. and hopefully all racially/relgiously/land-based violence will end soon.

Ravon · 01-27-2005, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alter

Okay, here's my challenge to you:

First, forget history for a moment. Don't waste breath arguing whose claim to what is how many years old, or anything like that.

Okay, now, put yourself in the shoes of the Israeli government. If your anti-Israel sentiment has to do with your dislike of Jews, change the name. Picture a little country of Sauronites, or WinSmithies, or whatever.

Your country mostly comprises a small ethnic minority of people like you, within mostly indefensible borders. (Your people are still persecuted in many places throughout the world, and there have been attempts in the past to annihilate you by large governments.) You occupy the territory adjacent to your country, filled with a people who have many who hate you and seek your destruction. Your capital includes some occupied territory.

If you abandon the occupied territory, the new government there is unlikely to be strong enough to prevent terrorist attacks on your country, and may actually support such attacks. Until now, the attacks have been mostly small, but if the new govt in the occupied territory is given full leeway at its borders, it is very likely that they will conspire with some of their 500 million strong ethnic group to bring in some sort of WMD, and fire it the mere miles into your country.

However, if you continue to occupy the territory and go after the terrorists, you will create harsh enough conditions to encourage more terrorists.

If you try a "light" occupation, the terrorist groups inside will have enough freedom to work on attacks, and although recruitment will be harder, attacks will be easier.

You also have hard liners in your own country who resist any efforts to pull back, preventing you from either pulling back inside previous armisitice lines (which would likely include tearing up towns on your side), or leaving the country altogether. They have strong historical attachments to the land and to the religious sites, and they will not budge.

Your worries going forward are that the tech levels will increase such as to make it impossible for you to prevent all possible WMD attacks maybe 20 years down the line. You know that no matter what you do, there will still be a core group seeking your destruction, and much money and governmental support from their ethnic brethren outside.

What would YOU do?

Alter congrats on a great thread. You are able to do so well becasue you are smart and reasonable. I am sure that if all Israelis were as reasonable as you a doable peace would have been found. That is if you could have gotten the palestinians to over look some of the historical facts that you left out. Most notably is the notion that Israel was always where it was and that the surrounding territory was occupied by palestinaian. Isn't it true that when the first Jewish refugees started arriving after the war the initial response froom the palestinians living in Palestine was one of welcome and that they only became concerned when the numbers increased, Israeli terrorist like the Stern gang began operations and it became clear that the intention was to set up a jewsh state in the Palestinian homeland.

The Israeli government make a big deal of suicide bombers who they brand as terrorist. But when they launch a missle which falls from the sky and into a palestinian villiage they are... soldiers or terrorists.

Like the others on this thread I too hope for peace, but I am less optimistic than some because I know that Israel will not accept the possibility that they have done anything wrong. :banghead:

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01-27-2005, 01:16 PM	#11
pariah Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: الرياض Posts: 6,456	I'm not sure what I would do. Fortunately for all of us, your version of the situation doesn't exist, so we don't really need to know.

01-27-2005, 01:29 PM	#13
Trout Contributor Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: the north Posts: 12,935	Sometimes I think this conflict is the only one that anyone really cares about. It is talked about so much while so many other equally violent, complex and hell, even interesting from a cerebral point of view, conflicts/issues are out there. Albiet it has important related potential ramifications and impacts on significant parts of the world but wow, it really needs a breather now and then. Unless someone blows up the Dome of the Rock don't wake me....

01-27-2005, 01:32 PM	#15
ZeusTKP Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 2,852	Whatever. This is absurd. Humans are absurd. There's no need for war. Ever. We are VERY imperfect creatures. Our base instincts are totally incompatible with our intellect. We need to become something else than human. Humans are outdated and dangerous.

01-27-2005, 02:21 PM	#19
Rob0t X Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Pacific NW Posts: 816	i am happy that this thread has gone the way it has. hopefully there will be peace soon. hopefully the palestinians will have their own state, and hopefully the palestinians that are living in israel will be treated as full citizens. and hopefully all racially/relgiously/land-based violence will end soon.

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