Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Wyrdsmyth · 04-22-2002, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Easy Be:
Now since this phenomena occurrs religion will naturally evolve from it. So won't religion and God be unavoidable?

I think it evolves from a number of reasons, including the ones you state. A lot of people feel like "there just has to be something more," and it's not so much fear of death, but fear of existential meaninglessness that drives a lot of religion.

[ April 22, 2002: Message edited by: Wyrdsmyth ]

Easy Be · 04-22-2002, 08:43 AM

Wyrdsmyth,

Quote:

I'm not so sure the world is divided up into 90% theist and 10% atheist.

I thought I heard it was somewhere. My numbers might not be up to date.

Quote:

In my own experience, from people I've met and known, I wouldn't draw a conclusion that 90% of them are religious. I know a lot of people who go to church, but admit they do it out of habit and aren't always sure if there's a god or not: I know a lot who are like that, perhaps even the majority. And a lot of them, if pressed, will admit they have their religion more for social reasons and cultural tradition, than due to any deep sense of spirituality. We shouldn't neglect recognizing this huge "moderate middle" of what we might call weak theists or weak agnostics.

I agree for the most part. I think one major reason keeping weak theists and weak agnostics back from atheism is their fear of death.

Quote:

A lot of people don't want the stigma of being called 'atheist,' so they go with the flow. And many can't even articulate arguments why they believe, or ought to. Is that weak? Maybe it is, but I can understand it and sympathize with it.

I�m new I made a fatal mistake using the word weak-minded. I stress now that I�m only referring to a certain aspect that some weak-minded people posess.

This debate has curved the wrong direction from which I planned. I made it seem that God is necessary in all weak-minded people. I only meant those of whom experience the phenomena that Murphy described and those who fear death.

DarkBronzePlant · 04-22-2002, 01:00 PM

Quote:

OK, I understand that I shouldn't have used the word weak-minded with it's broad definition. I should have specified more clearly what type of weak-minded people I was referring to.

What I meant when I said:
"Describing someone as "weak-minded" or "not weak-minded" is a little too binary."
was not that a different term should be used; rather, people have some areas in which they are strong, and some areas in which they are not-so-strong. Thus, it's hard (at least for me) to take a single attribute and use that to describe someone's overall strength or weakness. So while I believe that, all other things being equal, a person who believes in god is stronger-minded than one who doesn't, I can't really say that just because someone believes in god, they are necessarily weak-minded.

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However do you agree that God is at least necessary in people that have a great fear of death or those who suffer from great depression.

In general, yes. God is often held on to by people who have such issues.

Quote:

Now since this phenomena occurrs religion will naturally evolve from it. So won't religion and God be unavoidable?

It's hard to say. Maybe irrefutable proof will emerge that Christianity is a big hoax (in which case something will probably take god's place anyway.) Maybe science will discover that death is not really "the end" after all. But I'd say you are probably right, and because of human nature and human frailties, god will never go away.

luvluv · 04-22-2002, 01:46 PM

I'm sure this will rustle a lot of feathers, but I mean this in as gentle a fashion as it can be meant:

Has it ever occured to you folks that you are bigots?

Philosoft · 04-22-2002, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by luvluv:
I'm sure this will rustle a lot of feathers, but I mean this in as gentle a fashion as it can be meant:

Has it ever occured to you folks that you are bigots?

From dictionary.com:

Quote:

Word History: Bigots may have more in common with God than one might think. Legend has it that Rollo, the first duke of Normandy, refused to kiss the foot of the French king Charles III, uttering the phrase bi got, his borrowing of the assumed Old English equivalent of our expression by God. Although this story is almost surely apocryphal, it is true that bigot was used by the French as a term of abuse for the Normans, but not in a religious sense. Later, however, the word, or very possibly a homonym, was used abusively in French for the Beguines, members of a Roman Catholic lay sisterhood. From the 15th century on Old French bigot meant �an excessively devoted or hypocritical person.� Bigot is first recorded in English in 1598 with the sense �a superstitious hypocrite.�

You were saying?

[ April 22, 2002: Message edited by: Philosoft ]

luvluv · 04-22-2002, 02:08 PM

I was saying:

Has it ever occured to you folks that you are bigots?

Toto · 04-22-2002, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by luvluv:
Has it ever occured to you folks that you are bigots?

"Bigot" implies some sort of prejudgment without considering the individual facts.

To say that all Christians are poorly educated hillbillies is bigoted (and untrue) but I don't see anyone saying that.

To say that Christians believe in absurd doctrine for reasons having to do with psychology and not reason or logic, is just a comment on the Christian belief system. If you can't say something like that, how can you actually discuss Christianity?

The Catholic League is very big on stifling any criticism of Catholic doctrine as anti-Catholic bigotry. Many others take any criticism of their religious beliefs as criticism of their culture, heritage, ethnicity, parents, and their own personal worth. If you take that attitude, you can't examine any religious belief.

"Weak-minded" was probably too unfriendly a term. But when I hear people like GW Bush push Christianity as the best cure for alcoholism and drug use, I wonder if it isn't being marketed to people who can't otherwise manage their lives, with no regard for its internal truth.

luvluv · 04-22-2002, 02:34 PM

Well, I've been on this board for a few weeks and I've been called everything but a child of God. I've been around people who were bigots towards one group of people or another, and you guys often sound more like them than not. There are some notable exceptions, but to believe as you believe you have to believe that you are in some way PERSONALLY superior to everyone who has religion. You can phrase that personal superiority nicely, but it amounts to the same thing: in some way, you folks think you are better than everyone who believes in God.

Samhain · 04-22-2002, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by luvluv:
 You can phrase that personal superiority nicely, but it amounts to the same thing: in some way, you folks think you are better than everyone who believes in God.

I'll stick with ridiculous assertions and assumptions for 800, Alex. Oh, a Daily Double? I think I'll place it all.

DarkBronzePlant · 04-22-2002, 02:56 PM

luvluv,

As mentioned by other posters, your original question of "Has it ever occured to you folks that you are bigots?" begs a satisfactory definition of the word "bigot". Because as negative as the term "weak-minded" sounds, "bigot" has a far more negative connotation.

But in general, I've considered the notion. Does my belief that there is, in general, something wrong with a person who believes in a god consitute bigotry? Perhaps it does. At the same time, however, I would feel the same way about, say, someone who feels they have to lie about themselves to make themselves look better to other people. I know people who do that. Am I completely "better" than those people? No. Do I think that I am superior to them with regards to self-confidence and inner strength? Yes. Am I wrong to think that? I don't think so. Am I bigot for thinking that? It's hard to say. Again, it goes back to what we are defining as bigotry.

Anyway, when you say "You can phrase that personal superiority nicely, but it amounts to the same thing: in some way, you folks think you are better than everyone who believes in God," you may be right, but I would put heavy emphasis on the "in some way." It certainly is not in all ways.

So anyway, luvluv, is there no attribute regarding which you feel yourself superior over others?

(edited to add the obvious, that I am speaking for myself here...)

[ April 22, 2002: Message edited by: DarkBronzePlant ]

04-22-2002, 02:56 PM	#20
DarkBronzePlant Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: San Francisco, CA USA Posts: 3,568	luvluv, As mentioned by other posters, your original question of "Has it ever occured to you folks that you are bigots?" begs a satisfactory definition of the word "bigot". Because as negative as the term "weak-minded" sounds, "bigot" has a far more negative connotation. But in general, I've considered the notion. Does my belief that there is, in general, something wrong with a person who believes in a god consitute bigotry? Perhaps it does. At the same time, however, I would feel the same way about, say, someone who feels they have to lie about themselves to make themselves look better to other people. I know people who do that. Am I completely "better" than those people? No. Do I think that I am superior to them with regards to self-confidence and inner strength? Yes. Am I wrong to think that? I don't think so. Am I bigot for thinking that? It's hard to say. Again, it goes back to what we are defining as bigotry. Anyway, when you say "You can phrase that personal superiority nicely, but it amounts to the same thing: in some way, you folks think you are better than everyone who believes in God," you may be right, but I would put heavy emphasis on the "in some way." It certainly is not in all ways. So anyway, luvluv, is there no attribute regarding which you feel yourself superior over others? (edited to add the obvious, that I am speaking for myself here...) [ April 22, 2002: Message edited by: DarkBronzePlant ]</p>

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04-22-2002, 01:46 PM	#14
luvluv Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Planet Lovetron Posts: 3,919	I'm sure this will rustle a lot of feathers, but I mean this in as gentle a fashion as it can be meant: Has it ever occured to you folks that you are bigots?

04-22-2002, 02:08 PM	#16
luvluv Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Planet Lovetron Posts: 3,919	I was saying: Has it ever occured to you folks that you are bigots?

04-22-2002, 02:34 PM	#18
luvluv Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Planet Lovetron Posts: 3,919	Well, I've been on this board for a few weeks and I've been called everything but a child of God. I've been around people who were bigots towards one group of people or another, and you guys often sound more like them than not. There are some notable exceptions, but to believe as you believe you have to believe that you are in some way PERSONALLY superior to everyone who has religion. You can phrase that personal superiority nicely, but it amounts to the same thing: in some way, you folks think you are better than everyone who believes in God.

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