Freethought & Rationalism Archive

GeoTheo · 10-03-2002, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kosh:


Wait, I thought it was disbelief in Jesus as your savior that kept you out of Heaven. How can I choose Heaven if you keep changing the criteria? If I believe in Jesus, but have a lot of Pride, does that get me into Hell?

Going to hell could be likened to drowning. Jesus Christ could be likened to a life preserver. If you are to proud to grab the life preserver and therefore drown, it can be said that you drowned because of pride. There is no contradiction between not believing in Christ and not believing in Christ out of pride.
You cannot believe in Jesus and have pride. You can't be proud and believe in a savior. Proud people don't need a Savior they have themselves.

10-03-2002, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Going to hell could be likened to drowning. Jesus Christ could be likened to a life preserver. If you are to proud to grab the life preserver and therefore drown, it can be said that you drowned because of pride.

Why does your "loving" god throw us in the water in the first place? Why does the water even exist? Doesn't "He" know that most of us will drown?

[ October 03, 2002: Message edited by: atheist_in_foxhole ]

K · 10-03-2002, 07:09 PM

GeoTheo:

Does the experiential evidence people have had with the Greco-Roman gods, the Norse gods, the Hindu gods, ghosts, alien abductions, ESP, psychic powers, and astrology mean that those things are also all true? People have been having these experiences since before Christianity. Why is there any reason whatsoever to believe that your experiences are any more valid than any others? In other words, isn't it far more likely that these experiences are more a natural by product of the human brain than an actual supernatural experience? You do realize, don't you, that if you'd been raised Hindu, your divine experiences would likely revolve around the Hindu gods.

Bill Snedden · 10-03-2002, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RJS:
please elaborate - hardly sounds like a thought from a freethinker.

While I would definitely classify Amos as a free thinker, I do not believe that he is a "freethinker" in the sense of being an atheist or agnostic. Amos is (I believe) a somewhat non-traditional (and very original) Catholic.

Regards,

Bill Snedden

RJS · 10-03-2002, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Does the experiential evidence people have had with the Greco-Roman gods, the Norse gods, the Hindu gods, ghosts, alien abductions, ESP, psychic powers, and astrology mean that those things are also all true? People have been having these experiences since before Christianity. Why is there any reason whatsoever to believe that your experiences are any more valid than any others? In other words, isn't it far more likely that these experiences are more a natural by product of the human brain than an actual supernatural experience? You do realize, don't you, that if you'd been raised Hindu, your divine experiences would likely revolve around the Hindu gods.

Hey, we get to talk about Jesus now.

GeoTheo · 10-03-2002, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by K:
GeoTheo:

Does the experiential evidence people have had with the Greco-Roman gods, the Norse gods, the Hindu gods, ghosts, alien abductions, ESP, psychic powers, and astrology mean that those things are also all true? People have been having these experiences since before Christianity. Why is there any reason whatsoever to believe that your experiences are any more valid than any others? In other words, isn't it far more likely that these experiences are more a natural by product of the human brain than an actual supernatural experience? You do realize, don't you, that if you'd been raised Hindu, your divine experiences would likely revolve around the Hindu gods.

You would have to tell me about some of these experiences and what they are like. I doubt they are all the same. I never said my experience had any power to convince another. I think it is possible for a hindu and I to be experiencing the same God. Don't most believe in a Main God that is over all the lesser dieties? I think many of the lesser Gods are kind of like angels. If were communicating with some type of angel I believe experiencing it's presence would be qualitatively different than being in the presence of God. If a hindu was trying to worship the One true God that is the author of all that is good and pure, I think it would be possible for him to be experiencing the same thing as me. As far as being in the presence of a Norse God or an alien or a departed spirit, I think that would be qualitatively different. I have experienced what I believed to be the presence of evil spirits and I will tell you it is a much different experience than experiencing the presence of God.
If there is a quality of the human mind that makes one feel lowly and humble and at the same time overwhelmed with a sense of being loved that leads one to have a desire to worship I'd like to know what it could be. It also seems to have a very positive effect on how I treat other people. The more time I spend with God the nicer I am to be around and the more productive I am.
I wonder why this phenomenon of the human brain just happens to coincide with me praying and reading the Bible?
edited for spelling

[ October 03, 2002: Message edited by: GeoTheo ]

Philosoft · 10-03-2002, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RJS:


Hey, we get to talk about Jesus now.

You'd better head over to BC&A and make your case for this chap even existing before trying to use JHC as a verified data point in your argument.

GeoTheo · 10-03-2002, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by atheist_in_foxhole:


Why does your "loving" god throw us in the water in the first place? Why does the water even exist? Doesn't "He" know that most of us will drown?

[ October 03, 2002: Message edited by: atheist_in_foxhole ]

Who said God threw us in the water?

K · 10-03-2002, 07:43 PM

GeoTheo:

If you've also experienced evil spirits, I guess there's nothing we can really discuss. You might as well say that you've also experienced vampires and pixies. Just as with the UFO abductess, astrologers, and psychic friends, there is no amount of reason or evidence that will persuade you.

I won't try to take your belief away from you, I just wish that you'd see that, from the perspective of someone who hasn't talked to God, your belief is no more well founded than that of Miss Cleo.

Philosoft · 10-03-2002, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GeoTheo:


You would have to tell me about some of these experiences and what they are like.

We're not trying to convince you; we're asking how your 'faith' is supposed to convince us.

Quote:

I doubt they are all the same.

Quote:

I think it is possible for a hindu and I to be experiencing the same God.

Eh?

Quote:

If a hindu was trying to worship the One true God that is the author of all that is good and pure, I think it would be possible for him to be experiencing the same thing as me.

Of course, the Hindu doesn't worship JHC, which, I believe, is rather the crux of Christianity, is it not?

Quote:

As far as being in the presence of a Norse God or an alien or a departed spirit, I think that would be qualitatively different.

Any reason other than you have already decided that you are right and Norse God/alien/departed spirit worshippers are wrong?

Quote:

I wonder why this phenomenon of the human brain just happens to coincide with me praying and reading the Bible?

You really aren't aware of the brain's capability to influence itself? How do you think false beliefs obtain?

[ October 03, 2002: Message edited by: Philosoft ]

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10-03-2002, 07:09 PM	#163
K Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,485	GeoTheo: Does the experiential evidence people have had with the Greco-Roman gods, the Norse gods, the Hindu gods, ghosts, alien abductions, ESP, psychic powers, and astrology mean that those things are also all true? People have been having these experiences since before Christianity. Why is there any reason whatsoever to believe that your experiences are any more valid than any others? In other words, isn't it far more likely that these experiences are more a natural by product of the human brain than an actual supernatural experience? You do realize, don't you, that if you'd been raised Hindu, your divine experiences would likely revolve around the Hindu gods.

10-03-2002, 07:43 PM	#169
K Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,485	GeoTheo: If you've also experienced evil spirits, I guess there's nothing we can really discuss. You might as well say that you've also experienced vampires and pixies. Just as with the UFO abductess, astrologers, and psychic friends, there is no amount of reason or evidence that will persuade you. I won't try to take your belief away from you, I just wish that you'd see that, from the perspective of someone who hasn't talked to God, your belief is no more well founded than that of Miss Cleo.

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