Freethought & Rationalism Archive

christ-on-a-stick · 01-31-2003, 04:28 PM

Lady,

That's about all I've gotten out of him as well... oh well. This thread has been very interesting and thought-provoking for me regardless!

On a related note, I'm still wondering where the heck luvluv is.... it was his thread after all!!!

Viti · 01-31-2003, 04:32 PM

COAS, have you had any problems with sexual harassment in your mainstream jobs as I mentioned in my long post on this page? Am I really the only one?

christ-on-a-stick · 01-31-2003, 04:39 PM

Oh, I totally forgot to address that part!

No way Jose, you are NOT the only one!!!! I have experienced it in varying degrees - from "relatively" mild to severe enough that people thought I was crazy not to sue.

I think you are right on the money when you said that it is so commonplace that only the most egregious cases get publicized.

IIRC, brighid has mentioned being subjected to it as well, in another thread, I think... can't remember for sure though.

The handful of girls that I know who have danced as well pretty much echoed your sentiment - that the strip club environment was the most straightforward environment they had ever worked in, in that regard.

Like you said, in that environment *you* (as the dancer) are in control.

vash2k3 · 01-31-2003, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by christ-on-a-stick

Jesus H. Christ on a Stick.... I just wrote this long-ass reply to JerryM and Gurdur, popped to another window and *POOF* - gone! Argh... usually it stays there.... yes I am computer-retarded.

To repeat as best as I brain can recollect...

JerryM,

Firstly, I do believe that there are many performers out there who DO care about participating in a quality product - I am one of them. HOWEVER, the main reason that I fear organization of any kind has a major uphill battle is the fact that today there is a seemingly endless supply of 18-19 year old girls arriving in buses from the Midwest, etc., every day, who are eager to "break into" the business and are more than willing to work *without* safer practices and better treatment in exchange for immediate, big money (to them).

Essentially the agents do and will tell these girls without batting an eyelash "hey baby, you have real star quality, you could be the next Jenna Jameson" - and they will swallow it hook line and sinker. Some of the bigger agencies (World comes to mind, that is the one that they featured mainly on the PrimeTime show) blatantly lie about what types of work are available and use a lot of pressure and coercion tactics on very young and often immature girls.

So for that reason mainly I have a hard time seeing how the performers that do not fall into that category can gain leverage... although I am hopeful that strides can be made.

I would like to see greater regulation in the sense of it being treated like any legitimate industry, because that gives the workers more rights and avenues to protest unethical treatment. Unfortunately, despite the legality of the industry I don't think many people (outside it) really care that the standards are subpar as far as the workers' legal rights and treatment are concerned.

Hey Gurdur -

D'oh, the pun was actually quite unintentional! Oops...

I agree that it is not only many women but men who get mistreated and "used up" by the industry especially those who are enticed into it a young and vulnerable age. It is a shame when that happens to anyone, male or female, and I wish I had a better idea of what could be done to "clean up" the industry.

Although in a *sense* it is true that the porn industry is "less sexist" than the Hollywood scene - females are in higher demand and paid MUCH more - in the end they are ultimately discarded (much as in Hollywood) for the new and young.

I am not too familiar with the HIV testing rules for males since I haven't done boy-girl in years, but I thought it was the same standard (every 30 days) for the most part. Perhaps it is different in other places?

yes that is bad, I mean there is a website about exploited teens, and fuckin bangbus is the worst (unless its all an act, if so they arre fucking great actresses and actors)/

vash2k3 · 01-31-2003, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Odemus
I wonder how many of you are willing to send your own daughters off to California to star in the next gang bang movie. Seriously, who here has every intention of teaching their own children that being a porn actor is an acceptable lifestyle?

I'm not on a moral high horse. That is unless having morals makes you an equestrian. So what if I happen to think pornography is having an increasingly negative impact on our society and world at large? I think a common sense look at the industry would tell you that. So what if I think that pornography (hard core) is exactly the same thing as prostitution. Go pick up a freaking dictionary.

I've got a daughter to raise in this over sexed society where looks are prized far more than intellect. So what's a fella to do?

if she wants to its her body, her choice (I wouldnt care), but if it harmed her (disease and such) then I wouldnt allow it. I would inform her (or him as the case may be) to be careful and to be sure about aids tests and such/

Loren Pechtel · 01-31-2003, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LadyShea
COAS, have you had any problems with sexual harassment in your mainstream jobs as I mentioned in my long post on this page? Am I really the only one?

You're not the only one.

My wife has been offered $500 for a night with the boss. She's also been invited to a swing club by the "husband" (although hardly a marriage) of the boss (different boss).

However, she's never had what I would consider harassment. There has never been pressure or any negative consequences for not doing what was wanted.
I suspect that being very strong-willed and having "Doctor" in her title goes a long way towards keeping people from going too far with her, though. Most employers would know better than to push too hard! (Note: Both incidents were before she had enough English to get her license here.)

Since she got her license she hasn't had a boss that wouldn't have jumped at a chance to get into her panties but none has been aggressive about it.

Odemus · 01-31-2003, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dangin
Be wise, raise your daughter to enjoy her body. Don't tell her masturbation is wrong. Don't tell her sex is wrong. Tell her why to use condoms, even if she is on the pill. Tell her that sexual feelings, urges, curiosities, and drives are normal and nothing to be ashamed of. Empower her to be strong, knowledgeble and safe.

Otherwise tell her that sex is dirty, she should never masturbate, and that women who enjoy sex are whores. But don't save for her future college, save for her future therapy.

You people act as if this is true wisdom. My frustration here isn't just about pornography, it's the attitude reflected by dangin that is permeating every area of life. It's this exact philosophy that empowers public schools to teach our children about sex, pass out condoms, and make it possible for organizations like Planned Parenthood to give our kids abortions on taxpayer money without our ever knowing.

You certainly have the right to raise your kids however the hell you want. Go ahead and tell them that sex is amoral and relatively harmless. "Educate" them on proper protection and birth control. Hell, organize orgies for them so they can explore their sexuality and find out who they truly are if you feel so inclined-but don't presume to tell me that teaching my kids that monogamy applies to both mind and body, and to strive for a life of self control and virginity until marriage is wrong or damaging.

I think that's what arouses my anger the most. I have every right to raise my children the way I see best, but those rights are trampled on by the media and our own government on a daily basis. I have a great fear that it's only going to get worse.

Quote:

Originally posted by dangin
Otherwise tell her that sex is dirty, she should never masturbate, and that women who enjoy sex are whores. But don't save for her future college, save for her future therapy.

What a monstrous lie. My parents taught me that sex was a beautiful thing-in it's proper context. They taught me the virtues of keeping my mind and body pure and to resist the temptation of sex until marriage. I struggled with it on a grand scale. At times I made up every excuse imaginable to justify giving in and going for it. Sometimes the desire was excruciating, especially when I was engaged and knew I would be spending the rest of my life with the woman who is now my wife anyway. But I waited until after marriage. So after all of the struggle, and the waiting I can finally say it was one of the best decisions of my life. To say that teaching our children to abstain from sex until marriage will scar them or cause them to somehow harbour boatloads of resentment towards us that only years of therapy will be able to reverse is one of the biggest fallacies of our age.

Odemus · 01-31-2003, 09:10 PM

By the way, I know far more married couples who wish they had saved themselves for marriage than I do people who are indifferent.

Loren Pechtel · 01-31-2003, 09:47 PM

Originally posted by Odemus
You people act as if this is true wisdom. My frustration here isn't just about pornography, it's the attitude reflected by dangin that is permeating every area of life.

I'm not surprised you have this attitude.

It's this exact philosophy that empowers public schools to teach our children about sex,

The reason public school does this is parents like you aren't doing thier job.

pass out condoms,

No problem here. The only way a condom will hurt you is if you try to swallow it, or put it over your head so as to obstruct breathing.

and make it possible for organizations like Planned Parenthood to give our kids abortions on taxpayer money without our ever knowing.

Get a better source of news! Taxpayer money doesn't fund abortions other than medicaid cases where the pregnancy endangers the woman.

You certainly have the right to raise your kids however the hell you want. Go ahead and tell them that sex is amoral and relatively harmless.

Fine so far.

"Educate" them on proper protection and birth control.

The only people that won't need to know about birth control at some point are those who are exclusively homosexual. Since I'm pretty sure you would be very upset at the notion that this applies to your child(ren) you should figure that they will at some point need the knowledge.

Hell, organize orgies for them so they can explore their sexuality and find out who they truly are if you feel so inclined

Actually, I would find this a wrong action no matter what the parents felt about orgies.

-but don't presume to tell me that teaching my kids that monogamy applies to both mind and body,

Nobody's saying you can't. If your ideas can't compete in an open market of ideas, though, there's likely something wrong with them.

and to strive for a life of self control and virginity until marriage is wrong or damaging.

But it is. Virginity until marriage leads to early marriage which leads to unhappy marriage. Not always but there's a definite trend.

I think that's what arouses my anger the most. I have every right to raise my children the way I see best, but those rights are trampled on by the media and our own government on a daily basis. I have a great fear that it's only going to get worse.

Your rights aren't being trampled one bit. You have a right to tell them what you want. You don't have a right to prohibit them from being exposed to other ideas.

What a monstrous lie. My parents taught me that sex was a beautiful thing-in it's proper context. They taught me the virtues of keeping my mind and body pure and to resist the temptation of sex until marriage. I struggled with it on a grand scale. At times I made up every excuse imaginable to justify giving in and going for it. Sometimes the desire was excruciating, especially when I was engaged and knew I would be spending the rest of my life with the woman who is now my wife anyway.

What did the struggle gain you? Lots of frustration.

But I waited until after marriage. So after all of the struggle, and the waiting I can finally say it was one of the best decisions of my life.

You presented no evidence of this.

To say that teaching our children to abstain from sex until marriage will scar them or cause them to somehow harbour boatloads of resentment towards us that only years of therapy will be able to reverse is one of the biggest fallacies of our age.

It's not merely the waiting. It's the whole unhealthy attitude towards sex that we are talking about. Suppress normal sexual desires and all too often they take bad paths. All the problems with priests abusing children isn't a coincidence!

Gurdur · 01-31-2003, 09:48 PM

Odemus,

the best advice has been given to you here by livius drusus.

What rather concerns me is the overstatements of your position.

You see, I find the growing commercial sexualisation and trivialization of a lot of things --- most especially the sexualization of children in advertisments --- of great concern myself.

Furthermore, while I am strongly in favour of legalized (and tightly controlled) prostitution and porn industries (and they are two very different things, contrary to your stance), I myself am against prostitution and hard-core porn --- just my personal choice.

Yet the way you overstate your claims here, and how you started by attacking
christ-on-a-stick, means that there is no ground for allience between those like myself, and you.

IOW, you lose support needlessly through your exaggerations.

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01-31-2003, 04:28 PM	#91
christ-on-a-stick Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Durango, Colorado Posts: 7,116	Lady, That's about all I've gotten out of him as well... oh well. This thread has been very interesting and thought-provoking for me regardless! On a related note, I'm still wondering where the heck luvluv is.... it was his thread after all!!!

01-31-2003, 04:32 PM	#92
Viti Contributor Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Down South Posts: 12,879	COAS, have you had any problems with sexual harassment in your mainstream jobs as I mentioned in my long post on this page? Am I really the only one?

01-31-2003, 04:39 PM	#93
christ-on-a-stick Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Durango, Colorado Posts: 7,116	Oh, I totally forgot to address that part! No way Jose, you are NOT the only one!!!! I have experienced it in varying degrees - from "relatively" mild to severe enough that people thought I was crazy not to sue. I think you are right on the money when you said that it is so commonplace that only the most egregious cases get publicized. IIRC, brighid has mentioned being subjected to it as well, in another thread, I think... can't remember for sure though. The handful of girls that I know who have danced as well pretty much echoed your sentiment - that the strip club environment was the most straightforward environment they had ever worked in, in that regard. Like you said, in that environment you (as the dancer) are in control.

01-31-2003, 09:10 PM	#98
Odemus Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Easy Street Posts: 736	By the way, I know far more married couples who wish they had saved themselves for marriage than I do people who are indifferent.

01-31-2003, 09:47 PM	#99
Loren Pechtel Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Not Mayaned Posts: 96,752	Originally posted by Odemus You people act as if this is true wisdom. My frustration here isn't just about pornography, it's the attitude reflected by dangin that is permeating every area of life. I'm not surprised you have this attitude. It's this exact philosophy that empowers public schools to teach our children about sex, The reason public school does this is parents like you aren't doing thier job. pass out condoms, No problem here. The only way a condom will hurt you is if you try to swallow it, or put it over your head so as to obstruct breathing. and make it possible for organizations like Planned Parenthood to give our kids abortions on taxpayer money without our ever knowing. Get a better source of news! Taxpayer money doesn't fund abortions other than medicaid cases where the pregnancy endangers the woman. You certainly have the right to raise your kids however the hell you want. Go ahead and tell them that sex is amoral and relatively harmless. Fine so far. "Educate" them on proper protection and birth control. The only people that won't need to know about birth control at some point are those who are exclusively homosexual. Since I'm pretty sure you would be very upset at the notion that this applies to your child(ren) you should figure that they will at some point need the knowledge. Hell, organize orgies for them so they can explore their sexuality and find out who they truly are if you feel so inclined Actually, I would find this a wrong action no matter what the parents felt about orgies. -but don't presume to tell me that teaching my kids that monogamy applies to both mind and body, Nobody's saying you can't. If your ideas can't compete in an open market of ideas, though, there's likely something wrong with them. and to strive for a life of self control and virginity until marriage is wrong or damaging. But it is. Virginity until marriage leads to early marriage which leads to unhappy marriage. Not always but there's a definite trend. I think that's what arouses my anger the most. I have every right to raise my children the way I see best, but those rights are trampled on by the media and our own government on a daily basis. I have a great fear that it's only going to get worse. Your rights aren't being trampled one bit. You have a right to tell them what you want. You don't have a right to prohibit them from being exposed to other ideas. What a monstrous lie. My parents taught me that sex was a beautiful thing-in it's proper context. They taught me the virtues of keeping my mind and body pure and to resist the temptation of sex until marriage. I struggled with it on a grand scale. At times I made up every excuse imaginable to justify giving in and going for it. Sometimes the desire was excruciating, especially when I was engaged and knew I would be spending the rest of my life with the woman who is now my wife anyway. What did the struggle gain you? Lots of frustration. But I waited until after marriage. So after all of the struggle, and the waiting I can finally say it was one of the best decisions of my life. You presented no evidence of this. To say that teaching our children to abstain from sex until marriage will scar them or cause them to somehow harbour boatloads of resentment towards us that only years of therapy will be able to reverse is one of the biggest fallacies of our age. It's not merely the waiting. It's the whole unhealthy attitude towards sex that we are talking about. Suppress normal sexual desires and all too often they take bad paths. All the problems with priests abusing children isn't a coincidence!

01-31-2003, 09:48 PM	#100
Gurdur Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Buggered if I know Posts: 12,410	Odemus, the best advice has been given to you here by livius drusus. What rather concerns me is the overstatements of your position. You see, I find the growing commercial sexualisation and trivialization of a lot of things --- most especially the sexualization of children in advertisments --- of great concern myself. Furthermore, while I am strongly in favour of legalized (and tightly controlled) prostitution and porn industries (and they are two very different things, contrary to your stance), I myself am against prostitution and hard-core porn --- just my personal choice. Yet the way you overstate your claims here, and how you started by attacking christ-on-a-stick, means that there is no ground for allience between those like myself, and you. IOW, you lose support needlessly through your exaggerations.

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