paul30

All science, even quantum physics, depends on a high degree of determinism.

Statistically, it would seem that our actions are determined as rigidly as the parabola of an arrow.

Still, subjectively we do not perceive that inflexibility. Inside our heads we perceive or conceive lots of choices, and because we imagine them, we imagine we have options that are completely non-determined.

So while I think we are determined in fact, in our perceptions we are free. Freedom of will consists of the ILLUSION of free will.

If you think you are free, you are. But that doesn't mean you can flap your arms and fly.

mike_decock

I disagree. Evil isn't necessary to experience or pursue good. Pain isn't necessary to experience pleasure. Your family doesn't have to be homeless before you have the wisdom to provide a roof over their head. You don't have to suffer starvation before you can savor a piece of chocolate cake.

-Mike...

7thangel

That is why we call our salvation grace!!! That is why the mystery of salvation did not really matter though it was only revealed at the time of Christ. In fact, those who were bound to believe were those who were chosen. And though some believe, they were expected to fall because they were not given to fully know the mystery.


Fallacious reasoning. If you agree on my premise that we have no free will, how come you think that you are making a decision?

On the other hand, science convinces us of our "random/deterministic" nature. And thus, we have no free will. In the end, we actually does not make choices according to free will, rather we act, think and feel randomly/deterministicly accordingly to our random/deterministic environment. Now who's your fooling to be somebody's plaything? Either you are being toyed by God, or by random/deterministic nature.

Either case, its actually is nobody's choice to be who they are.

WELCOME TO REALITY!!!!!

7thangel

Spare me of unnecessary explanations.

Tell me, should we all close the prison houses?
Should we get rid of policemen on the streets?
Are the courts unnecessary?

mike_decock

Does that mean you agree with me?

Prisons, policemen and courts are necessitated by the presence of evil. That has nothing to do with whether or not evil is necessary.

-Mike...

BadBadBad

God is evil. Everyone get out your list of God's characteristics, and let's make sure that if you haven't already got that one on the list, add it now! Oh, and let's all praise our evil and loving God!

7thangel, explain to us how God being evil doesn't equate to him being imperfect. If God is evil, and in my Bible he certainly is, he is certainly not perfect. An evil God would murder babies even when he has omnipotent power to, I don't know, send his miracle working son down to get their parents back on the right tract, or maybe light a burning bush and speak to them directly, or maybe just snap his fingers and make the parents stop being bad. So, yes, I agree that the Bible shows God to be evil. In my book, that makes him imperfect and evil, therefore not worthy of worship. Also since evil and imperfect are contradictory to the perfect and loving God described in the Bible, it makes more sense to me to conclude that the Bible is just not true.

A perfect, loving, omniscient God, like the IPU, would look into the future to see how Adam and Eve would decide to follow his orders based upon the set of knowledge that he gave them. If he saw in his infinite decision tree through his omniscience that A&E would make the decision to disobey him, a perfect and loving God would say "hold on, maybe I better impart more knowledge to them so they'll make the right decision." Maybe like ya' know just telling them that by eating the fruit of knowledge that they'll be imparting sin, damnation, and eternal hell fire onto their offspring for ions of generations to come. Based upon a certain set of knowledge imparted by God onto A&E, God would see into the future that they will disobey him. He would then see the chain reaction of original sin, followed by thousands of years of sin, godlessness, damnation, and hell fire. An evil god would say, nevermind, I won't impart more knowledge onto A&E so they can make an informed choice that might prevent the chain of sin, godlessness, damnation, and hell fire, oh and let's not forget genocide. We can either conclude the Bible is true, and spend the rest of our lives trying to make sense out of this nonsense, or we can draw the obvious conclusion that the Bible God is just pure bunk.


If I watch my little kid reaching for the burning pot handle and say nothing, yes, the poor child will learn. What kind of person would I be if I knowingly let him learn such a painful lesson? There is another way to learn you know. I can't believe I need to explain this to you, but I can reach out and grab the child's hand and tell him "Look out. That's hot!" I can demonstrate the meaning of hot without letting him get a third degree burn. Surely an omnipotent and omniscient God would understand that and come up with a few options better than genocide and eternal hell fire to get across his message. I know that's a simple concept, and if you just stopped letting your brain churn away trying to make sense out of this God nonsense, I know you'd grasp it right away.

If I'm not getting my chrisitians mixed up, you don't believe in Hell either, and you don't believe a lot of what else the Bible says. How convenient, and at the same time, good for you.

I think predestination and omniscience, especially in the context of God, are both paradox concepts. They both imply foreknowledge, and I can't put my finger on it or prove it, but there's a paradox there just like going back in time and killing my father before I was born.

BadBadBad

You're probably right, I don't think you're ever going to get it.

Let me try to explain anyway. Yes, we could close all the prisons, get rid of the policemen, and courts. We could eliminate murder, crime, and even sin altogether. Based upon your beliefs, God has predestined these people to live out these murderous, evil, and sinful existences. If your beliefs are true, we should just pray to God that he'll stop predestining these people to commit acts of evil. Problem solved. Are you praying yet?

I know you can't, but I can envision a world where people don't get murdered. There's no war. People's homes don't get blown apart by tornados. There's no starvation. Kids don't die of disease or 3rd degree burns. Dictators don't rape and murder children in front of their parents. If I were God, the world would definitely be a better place. I'm going to make an exception today just for you. I'm going to pray to God that he use my morality as a guide for Him in the future.

7thangel

no, I mean of the reason that it does not mean that you have to experience things directly to know what is evil. And thus learn from it.

Hmmmnnn...So why do you think people did not learn? And why should you think that these people be incarcerated?

T. E. Lords

I don't know if I really agree with sciece as of yet on this issue. Sure I don't have complete free will. Such as, I didn't have a choice in being born, who my parents were, how they raised me or pretty much anything until I was old enough to think for myself. I'm capable of realizing why one choice might seem more appealing to me and then deconstructing it and making sure thats what I really think and that it's not just something that my mother said that always stuck with me. I'm capable of challenging my perceptions and biases. For me thats enought to believe that I have the ability to determine my actions.

BadBadBad

Sorry to pick on you 7thangel, but I thought of something else. You're big on Romans 9 and God as the potter and we as his great creation of pots. You keep saying he created bad pots to teach us good pots the difference between bad and good. How else are we to learn, you say. Did you forget what Romans and Exodus said about why God predestined us to damnation? Why he hardened Pharoah's heart? It wasn't to teach the blessed about good and evil.

Romans 9:17
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Exodus 7:3-5
And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt. But Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, that I may lay my hand upon Egypt, and bring forth mine armies, and my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments. And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch forth mine hand upon Egypt, and bring out the children of Israel from among them.

9:14-16
For I will at this time send all my plagues upon thine heart, and upon thy servants, and upon thy people; that thou mayest know that there is none like me in all the earth. For now I will stretch out my hand, that I may smite thee and thy people with pestilence; and thou shalt be cut off from the earth. And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.

10:1-2
And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him: And that thou mayest tell in the ears of thy son, and of thy son's son, what things I have wrought in Egypt, and my signs which I have done among them; that ye may know how that I am the LORD.


11:9
And the LORD said unto Moses, Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you; that my wonders may be multiplied in the land of Egypt.


This in chapter 11 as a prelude to God himself murdering all the first sons of Egypt. Why 7thangel? Not to show us the difference between good and evil. Why? Well of course to wave the glory flag of God for all to see. That's why. That's his reason.

You believe in predestination. We're predestined by God to be either blessed or damned. To teach us good or evil is not what the Bible says. "That my wonders may be multiplied." That "ye may know how that I am the Lord." "That my name be declared throughout the Earth." "That thou may knowest that there is none like me in all the Earth." "That I might shew my power in thee." Only in the warped mind of a christian is that a noble purpose.