99Percent

Thanks David Mathews for replying. Unlike others I like to get to the nitty gritty of the discussion with short to the point posts, as you seem to do also.

You are asking me to "identify, describe and logically justify this reality". Read this again:
and maybe with the logical persistency of these characters glaring at you from your computer screen again and again in a constant refresh (something no mystical and imaginary god will ever do) you will begin to grasp the truth of what I am saying.

99Percent

OTOH

David Mathews: The unpleasantness is meeting God is associated with the absolute and permanent destruction of human arrogance and presumption which follows from such contact. If you met God, you would know with certainty that you are nothing and that you know nothing. Such knowledge is not compatible with normal human life, anyone who becomes acquainted with God will see their concept of self evaporate.

You know David, this is pretty weird. First you claim that you don't even know your god and that you only have faith in its existence. Then you come up with these assertions that seem to imply that you have actually even met this god of yours. It really looks like utter and complete bullshit.

[ July 12, 2002: Message edited by: 99Percent ]</p>

rainbow walking

Hello Rainbow Walking,

Hi David,

Rw: Sure I would. Since I am challenging his literal existence all that would be required for him to answer the challenge is to show himself. He needn’t resort to any kind of violence to do this, as you seem to be implying.

David: I am not implying violence at all. The unpleasantness is meeting God is associated with the absolute and permanent destruction of human arrogance and presumption which follows from such contact.

Rw: Let’s keep this in proper perspective and in factual order. Most theists view atheists as arrogant and full of presumption in their lack of belief in a deity anyway, so you’re just parroting the general consensus among theists about us.

In order to meet your deity, (I’m assuming by “meet” you mean some type of epiphany or another, unless you mean a face to face?) first requires me to acceptthe literal existence of said deity. Once I’ve allowed my brain cells to be corrupted with this fantasy, then, and only then, am I considered ripe for the meeting. I must first divorce my rational mind from reality in this one small area in order to give your fantasy a toehold in my psyche. I can never expect a “meeting” to occur as long as I remain atheistic in my expectation. There is no record of your deity “meeting” an atheist and overcoming his atheism. None of the biblical accounts were in reference to the xian god’s representatives converting atheists. All of the conversions were from other cults who had already been infected by the god germ. It was proselytizing and not evangelizing.

Once I accept the existence of your imaginary deity I have already lost my claim to atheism and begun the journey towards the theistic definition of humility and open-mindedness. So your assertion that your deity creates this effect from the experience of meeting it, or epiphany if you will, is out of order. It requires me to believe your deity exists and additionally, that it has specific attributes enabling it to accomplish the outlandishly magical things theists claim it has and can do.

So not only do I have to believe but believe specific claims about your deity prior to any experience of meeting it in any meaningful way. That is why people born into xian environments invariably subscribe to the xian claims.

Now, just to set the record even straiter, a genuine atheist is not one who is atheist by ignorance, that is to say, due to a lack of knowledge about your fantasy, (such as the condition of all people at birth), a genuine atheist is one by choice.

Many genuine atheists in this forum were once infected with the god germ and were dedicated theists. Like me, they interpreted all of their life’s experiences thru the intellectual sieve that allowed or ascribed their experiences to some facilitation of your deity’s will or purpose for their lives. Like me, their intellectual sieve was infected by the god germ at an early age and later became over-powered by the god germ until they were treated by a healthy dose of knowledge that created a dissonance in the functioning of their sieve. They began to experience discomfort with the contradictions and inconsistencies apparent in the comparison between a psuedo-reality pictured by the fantasy and the actual reality of their day to day experiences. Somewhere along this path they decided to tighten their intellectual sieve a bit and ask relevant questions instead of just accepting most theistic claims as true. From this point on healing began and the god germ was treated with skepticism until they were completely free from the symptoms.

Theism is an intellectual disease that can be treated and cured. I have the antidote. It’s called factual knowledge of the truth about reality. With this antidote properly administered one’s intellectual sieve can be tightened up to allow only those claims that are logical, true, verifiable and effectual into a persons body of conscious knowledge which resides just beyond the sieve. This is that part of the brain referred to by theists as the “heart of man” and is the primary target of the god germ. Once a person’s intellectual sieve has been infected by the god germ this disease goes to work immediately on broadening the spaces between each skeptical strand in their sieve to allow greater flexibility to shovel more and more doctrinal aspects of the fantasy into their “heart of hearts”. This affords their puppet masters ever increasing influence over their lives and their life experiences, while they pick their pockets and drain their will to live and think for themselves. It is an insidious disease.

As a person’s intellectual sieve widens it has the effect of appearing to broaden their horizons of knowledge, creating a pleasant experience, (the acquisition of knowledge has always been edifying to humans, even if it isn’t true), it opens the sieve to receive the epiphany or imaginary experience of god.

Because the god germ was initially contracted by humans who, thru fear of death, required explanations for inexplicable experiences, those explanations afforded by the god germ appeared to assuage their fears and thus satisfied an innate internal drive that could not countenance frustration. This process, though more refined and sophisticated today, has not changed in thousands of years.

David: If you met God, you would know with certainty that you are nothing and that you know nothing.

Rw: Exactly. And in order to meet your imaginary deity I must first succumb to this debilitating view of myself to pave the way for your disease to run rampant through my normally healthy intellect.

David: Such knowledge is not compatible with normal human life, anyone who becomes acquainted with God will see their concept of self evaporate.

Rw: I have high lighted this gem of a sentence because theists aren’t normally so brazen as to actually expose the true intent of their germ infected imagination. The concept of our “self” is contained in the body of knowledge collected from our life’s experiences. The god germ, once contracted, will re-interpret all or most of those experiences in the process of disabling our intellectual sieve. Suddenly we’ll begin to associate every disappointment or accomplishment as evidence that our new found invisible daddy cares for us and has our best interests at heart.

David: Consider what Abram learned about God though His encounter with God was shrouded by the veil of sleep: "Now when the sun was going down, a deep sleep feel upon Abrahm; and behold, horror and great darkness feel upon him." (Genesis 15:12).

Rw: In other words I’m suppose to tremble and cower in fear of meeting your imaginary disease ridden deity because this mythical character had too much wine at supper and experienced a nightmare.

David: Contemplate the great burden which knowledge of God produced in the life of Jeremiah, "Then I said, 'I will not make mention of Him, nor will I speak anymore in His name.' But His word was in my heart like a burning fire shut up in my bones; I was weary of holding it back, and I could not." (Jeremiah 20:9).

Rw: Poor Jeremiah didn’t have the arsenal of natural factual knowledge available today to help him recover from the disease and eventually gave in and became another carrier.

David: You will learn that the experience of God had similar terrifying consequences among all those people who have encountered Him. I don't encourage you to seek such an encounter as I don't believe that you are able to handle it.

Rw: Well David, I’ve already learned the terrible consequences of being infected with the god germ and you needn’t worry about me ever becoming infected again. Once cured always cured. What you need to be thinking about is the effect I’m having on your disease ridden intellectual sieve.

David: God is by no means hiding from you. If you want to meet God, you can. Just don't address that request to me as it is not within my power to grant it. You should address it to God directly. If you do so, God will fulfill the request, though certainly not in the manner which you would prefer.

Rw: Right! And in order to address my appeal, I must firstsuccumb to the diseased belief that such an imaginary deity actually exists to formulate the appeal. When I lower my intellectual guard enough to do this I’ve already been infected.

David: Baal was not obligated to defend an altar made with hands, even if he had existed he still was not obligated to do so. Baal worship came to an end when the concept of Baal no longer fulfilled the spiritual needs of those people who had worshipped him.

Rw: Again I invite anyone interested to take note. It isn’t everyday that a theist is so honest about the nature of the infection. The reason Baal worship lost its appeal was primarily because the advanced stages of the disease had begun to create a desire in their intellect for more psuedo-knowledge that wasn’t quite so dissonant to their reality. That is why xianity has splintered off into so many different factions, each one appealing to that need for greater complexity of input of psuedo-knowledge to be consistent to some particular aspect of reality that threatens the spread and advancement of the germ. Thus the continuous re-interpretation of the primary carrier, (the bible), responsible for the initial infection. All the other religious manifestations of this disease are suffering the same fate.
David: The descendents of those people are monotheists today, they did not abandon the concept of God when they abandoned the worship of Baal.

Rw: The advancement of the disease requires treatment of the symptoms rather than the cause. Thus we have the journey from polytheism to monotheism. The germ begins to accrue such a life of its own within the victims imagination that it finally accumulates into a single monotheistic expression. I shudder to think what the next stage will require. Perhaps it’s cyclic.

Rw: Well David, actually you are. If you would go and fetch him here I’ll be pleased to debate his existence in person. In reality I am debating his existence in YOUR person because that is all that literally exists: your imagination and willingness to entertain its contents as though they were more real than reality.

David: Perhaps so, but you don't really know this.

Rw: Yes David, I do know this because it is YOU who are doing all the work.

rw: Don’t make the mistake of imagining your position as a mystic will prevent me from impaling your imaginary deities upon the horns of the dilemma created by their exposure to the bright clear light of reason. Just because you’re clever enough not to drop your anchor into any particular mystical belief system, reserving the privilege of running among them, doesn’t mean I won’t be able to hem you up in your holy garments and expose the tattered rags of men’s imagination from which they’ve been constructed.

David: You are invited to do so, but I must tell you that my own individual success or failure does not constitute the success or failure of Theism. Four billion people believe in God and belief in God is still displaying potency and intellectual force in today's world.

Rw: Sadly you are correct. It is because I care what becomes of you that I even bother to try. This disease leaves scars. You are just one among millions of its victims. But you are here actively engaged in dialogue and I will continue to treat the cause rather than the symptoms.

Rw: Divide and conquer David. It’s tried and true. Standing alone alienates you from all mystical belief systems even as you try to appeal to each of them respectively to hide you from the dawning of human reason, none of them will know you or provide you with the imaginary protection you will seek. Why should they? As a mystic you pledge allegiance to none of them, only seeking to loot their reserve of mystical claims for your own selfish ends. Valid mystical claims are in short supply these days, David, and come with a higher price than you’re willing to pay. Each one requires you to commit to its dogma, something you can’t afford with my sharp, incisively surgical criticisms hot on your trail. Yes, alone you stand but not for long. The Potter’s Field is full of mystics like yourself who stood alone and fell under the heavy blows of reason as they came crashing in upon their imaginations stripping away their every argument. In the end you will hang yourself. Let us hope you use a better quality of rope than Judas did.

David: Bold people are not intimidated by the thought of failure. The three children answered Nebuchadnezzar's threat: "O Nebuchadnezzar, we have no need to answer you in this matter. If that is the case, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and He will deliver us from your hands, O king. But if not, let it be known to you, O king, that we do not serve your gods, nor will we worship the gold image which you have set up." (Daniel 3:16-18).

Rw: How could they? They were in the advanced stages of the disease and the king’s religion wouldn’t satisfy the demands created by their dissonance.

David: Weak people fear failure, bold people will embrace both the risk and rewards associated with exploration of these profound themes of religion. For those people who are willing to die, there are no threats which would prevent them from thinking, speaking or behaving as they will.

Rw: Then death is the ultimate stage of this disease. There is a difference between boldness and folly David.

Rw: Reality is an abstract concept that stands on the foundation of concrete existence. It is buttressed by all things that have actual being. Its boundaries are established by science and reason. It does not extend beyond the knowable. Only man’s imagination is capable of climbing the fence and pretending that its borders are not so clearly defined.

That which is unknowable and incomprehensible has no citizenship rights or claims to reality and must show some form of identity to legitimize its business here. It is an illegal alien and stands in jeopardy of being deported. Men are always trying to smuggle aliens across the border because of their utility in alleviating a man from the exacting standards of rationality.

David: Let me see if I understand you correctly: Is reality limited by human tools of perception and comprehension? There is no possibility whatsoever of any sort of reality outside of what humans know and can understand?

Rw: No David, you haven’t understood me at all. There is a vast compendium of reality awaiting discovery by the human tools of perception, waiting to be assimilated into human comprehension, but none of it will give up its secrets via religion. Religion is powerless to advance man’s comprehension and perception of the real. Religion creates a psuedo-reality and super-imposes over that which exists. It places the blame on mankind in those areas where the two do not align and gives the credit to its imaginary deity where they do. It claims as proof of its deity those areas where the two don’t align and as evidence of its deity where they do. It is a disease of the intellect and nothing more. Sorry David.

David: I think that your "reality" is subjective and imaginary. You are making reality a slave of your own intellect. I suspect that reality won't tolerate slavery to any human.

Rw: No David, my subjective comprehension of the real does not establish its boundaries. I could never discuss nuclear physics with a nuclear physicist because my subjective comprehension of reality doesn’t include the knowledge of nuclear physics but that doesn’t mean nuclear physics is imaginary. Nuclear physics has proven its basis in reality.

Rw: Unfortunately, Genesis 1 & 2 does not parallel the actuality. It has been proven to be erroneous and thus invalidated as a legitimate allegorical tool.

David: I don't know what you are talking abot. Genesis 1 & 2 was translated allegorically long before science began learning the history of the Universe, the Earth and life.

Rw: And the allegory became irrelevant once science became relevant. That’s what I’m talking about.

Rw: This quaint little escape mechanism implies that science and god are separate entities. When you launch a claim that your imaginary god “engulfs” the domain of science they each lose their distinction of separateness. You cannot have my cake and eat yours too, except in your imagination. So long as you live in your imagination you have nothing to give unto science. Science has nothing to give unto god except the boot.

David: You might think that science is locked in some sort of life-and-death struggle with God but there are many scientists who do not share that opinion.

Rw: Yes David, the god germ is an equal opportunity employer and does not discriminate on the basis of race, sex, age or profession.

Rw: It takes great effort to define the borders of reality. It takes even greater effort to protect those borders from the moths and rust of theism as it tries to infiltrate and expropriate the products of the labors of reason. I am the strongman who will not suffer his house to be broken up by theism’s thieves in the night who creep about in the twilight of imagination to loot from my reality the elements it requires to create an identity necessary to legitimate citizenship in the land of reality. Men of reason are building a city for man. As theism creeps about on the fringe of your imagination seeking by stealth to steal the keys to our city to make it a city of God, I stand among many brethren as a Guardian with a spotlight of reason in one hand and the compass of science in the other ever extending the borders of my domain into the jungles of your imagination. Theism is running out of room and time.

David: I hope that you appreciate the irony of your thoughts expressed above: The concept of city of man/city of God came from an eloquent theist.

Rw: Yes, I know, I hope you appreciate the irony more than I. One of the prescriptions for treating the disease is to take the products of the disease, straiten out their twisted application, and re-introduce them back into the intellect of the patient. It’s the same principle as inoculation created by a serum of the blood of a cured patient whose system has become immune.

David: I suppose that your gates, your foundation, your city and even your own self are subsumed altogether within God. You cannot protect yourself from a perceived enemy outside when He is already inside of you. Your defense of reality is an futile exercise.

Rw: I’m not the one in need of protection David. I’m immune to your god germ.


David: I have no objection to preachers working. Work will give the preachers opportunity to put their religious ideals to practice.

Rw: I’m sure they’ll appreciate your generosity. Why don’t you make that suggestion the next time you attend a religious service. In fact, stand up during the service and make it to the pastor in front of the entire congregation.

rw: What possible incentive would an omni-max deity have for inventing us? No answer? Don’t know? Silence? Then perhaps some other theist hereabouts has rescued the answer to this question from the murky depths of his or her imaginary land beyond reality and would care to hoist upon us another unsupported assertion. Or maybe there is a limit to the imagination beyond which even incomprehensibility dares not tread…yes?

David: That is a good question indeed.

Rw: Which one?

David: Either theism originated extraordinarily early in the history of humanity, or human thought about God inevitably leads to common symbols of the Deity.

Rw: Both and neither are true reflections of the human condition because they were derived from human imagination that does not have the power to alter the universe unless the ideas imagined comply with the forces that regulate the material from which the universe derives its consistency.

David: If humans are born atheists and would remain atheists without a religious unbringing, I find it astonishing that the concept of God would have originated or become popular in the first place.

Rw: The germ had humble beginnings to be sure. But it spreads rampantly and resists all but the most factual medications.

David: the attributes of God are common to all religions.

Rw: I’m sorry, I must have missed something here. Which attributes would that be again?

David: Atheists have mentioned these common attributes a number of times in several different threads. I believe that you are aware of them.

Rw: No David, I’m not aware of any attributes listed by anyone that are common to all religions. I require further input by you to clarify and expand upon this universality of attributes.

David: So you think that God is only and exclusively an invention of human imagination?

Rw: Can you prove or even offer some evidence that it isn’t?

David: I believe that scentific rationality is only and exclusively an invention of the human imagination. I believe that atheistic naturalism is only and exclusively an invention of the human imagination. I believe that all philosophical concepts and speculations are only and exclusively an invention of the human imagination. What you are saying about God applies to everything else with equal force.

Rw: You are entitled to believe what you will David. Scientific rationality and atheistic naturalism are derivatives of factual verifiable consistently operational paradigms and methods of nature as it is. I couldn’t say the same about all philosophical concepts and I wouldn’t include speculations in any attestation of what is real, but you are trying to compare apples to oranges and it ain’t floating your boat.

Rw: You mean like the early Christian one that never raised a whimper against slavery? Or the modern Islamic one that compels its youth to murder innocent people as infidels? Or the ever efficacious Judaistic one that claims god-given squatters rights on lands it has drenched in Palestinian blood?

David: Theists have sinned and continue to sin. Religion has been aware of this from the beginning. Atheists also sin, and it has been reported that scientists sin.

Rw: Define sin.

Rw: And what has become of those great civilizations? Care to inform me of the major contributions made by the Iraqi of today, (which was the Babylon of yersteryear), the Egypt of today or the Isreal of today or the India or Italy or Greece of today? Do their current religious expressions, or lack of any, still impress you as evidence that theism has something constructive to contribute to mankind? Care to examine the major trouble spots of our world today and consider the religious foundations upon which those troublesome peoples depend for their unity, collective action and individual sacrifice? Care to consider how those virtues have been expressed lately? Well, nevermind, I can get that info from CNN.

David: All of these civilizations still are contributing to the growth and development of humankind. We may not agree with everything that these people commit, but it is just to say that those cultures also find many faults and sins in the Western cultures.

Rw: To be sure, and don’t mind expressing their judgments by murdering us randomly and at will. This is a great contribution to mankind. What have they contributed again…oh yeah, FEAR. Isn’t that what you attempted to sell me on your imaginary deity with? It seems to be the only consistent thread running through every stage of the disease.

And further more, when I read shit like this it pisses me off. When I think about a mass grave in the middle of New York City and the trail of blood and bodies running through-out man’s history, all products of your disease, I get even madder. So let me set the record strait for you once and for all. I do not consider the contributions made by your disease eaten mysticism to be worthy of consideration. I, and my fellow Americans, have a vested interest in protecting our lives and liberty from this insidious germ. We have both the means and the determination to prevent your version of contributions from becoming any more of a reality than your kind can manage to perpetrate in any given situation using the element of surprise. Once the surprise is over reality will set in. If you want to join the rest of the germ-infested mystics of the world and align yourself against me, go for it. Speaking as an American, we will thump your ass back into reality or oblivion, whichever comes first!

Make no mistake about it. These are not just words. They are backed by the golden standard of action enabled by the minds and tools of our science. Whenever and where ever this disease has reached its final stage of death and attempts to deposit that death on the world stage it will be rooted out and eliminated with surgical skill and devastating results. We have the right to defend ourselves and will do so!

David Mathews

Hello Synaesthesia,

David: You have not really explained anything, all you are saying is: The God-concept is popular because it is popular.

Now, do you know:

1. How did the God-concept originate?

2. Why did the God-concept reach its present level of dominance and popularity?

Sincerely,

David Mathews

David Mathews

Hello Jobar,

David: That is your own choice to make.

David: Mystics have made this claim for thousands of years. I believe that your claim is true only to the extent to which it is also true for the mystics.

David: That may be God enough for you, but it is by no means God enough for me.

David: My theology does not accept or deny that concept of God. I believe that the Buddhists spirituality is most devoted to nonexistence (physical and spiritual nonexistence) and therefore not satisfied with the physical body as a sufficient expression of the Deity.

I am very interested in hearing you describe your beliefs as I might be misunderstanding your viewpoint in my statements above.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

David Mathews

Hello Answerer,

David: God can do whatever He wishes, so much more reasons for humans to surrender themselves absolutely to Him.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

David Mathews

Hello wordsmyth,

David: You are mistaken. I would phrase the premise-conclusion in this manner:

Premise: I am a Christian by faith and by choice.

Conclusion: Therefore, and by definition, I place my trust and faith in the Christian Scriptures as the most valid.

David: I am in no position to judge the merits of these alternative Scriptures because they are meaningful to the Believer only. Unbelievers lack the context in which to comprehend the meaning and significance of these texts.

I suppose that I am a Christian as a consequence of nationality and/or culture. I believe that the same could be said of your identity as an atheist.

David: No. I made a claim regarding the nature of God. If you disagree with that claim, or if you can refute it, please do so.

David: Denominations exist. Christians are a diverse group with many differences of belief, thought, interpetation and application. I suppose that this means that all humans are unique.

You are proving that humans are individuals. You are not proving God's nonexistence.

David: Would you present these evidences for God as an invention and imagination of humankind?

Sincerely,

David Mathews

David Mathews

Hello 99percent,

David: Call it what you will.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

David Mathews

Hello Rainbow Walking,

David: This is exactly what I am asking you to do, are you bold enough to do it?

David: No, you will most certainly meet God, even as an atheist you will meet God. You can do so either gently or harshly, that is your own choice to make.

David: I am not asking you to do this. If you already believed in God you would not have any need to search for and find Him. Search for God as an atheist.

David: You are an atheist, then, by going contrary to your own inclinations. Am I correct in saying so?

David: I don't believe that you a free from the symptoms at all. You have a superficial atheism, a conscious atheism, built around the core of your personality which is still inclined to theism and perhaps is still theistic in its approach to reality.

David: I want you to describe and justify the antidote:

1. What is "factual knowledge'?
2. What is "truth"?
3. What is "reality"?
4. What components of your knowledge of reality are "factual" and which are "truth"?

David: This is the great benefits of theism.

David: I can afford to be brazen, I have nothing to hide.

David: You are not supposed to, you will. The response is automatic and instictive.

David: The world would be a poorer place without Jeremiah's response to God's inspiration.

David: I am inclined to speak honestly and directly.

David: True indeed.

David: You seem to have forgotten all those things which has already accomplished and continues to accomplish today.

David: Science itself is an allegory.

David: I would never behave so rudely.

David: All of them.

David: Omniscience, Omnipotence, transcendence, incomprehensibility, mystery. These are the common attributes of God among all religions of the world.

David: Scientific rationality and atheistic naturalism are both constructs of the human mind, intrinsically subjective and therefore the product of human imagination/creativity.

David: God's fundamental law is expressed: Love God, Love your fellow humans. All sins are a violation of these two laws.

David: Religion may have killed all those people, but it was science who killed a hundred thousand or so Japanese at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Science has developed more powerful and effective tools of killing for thousands of years. The sins of religion are also the sins of science.

David: Science as the great Savior of humankind is an absurd and paradoxical concept. Didn't science give us intercontinental ballistic missiles and 20,000 hydrogen bombs?

Sincerely,

David Mathews


[quote]

rainbow walking

Hello Rainbow Walking,

Hi David,

Rw: In order to meet your deity, (I’m assuming by “meet” you mean some type of epiphany or another, unless you mean a face to face?) first requires me to acceptthe literal existence of said deity. Once I’ve allowed my brain cells to be corrupted with this fantasy, then, and only then, am I considered ripe for the meeting. I must first divorce my rational mind from reality in this one small area in order to give your fantasy a toehold in my psyche. [/b]

David: This is exactly what I am asking you to do, are you bold enough to do it?

Rw: Let me repeat one sentence from the above:

Once I’ve allowed my brain cells to be corrupted with this fantasy, then, and only then, am I considered ripe for the meeting.

You might consider the corruption of one’s brain cells bold but I consider it the height of human folly

rw: I can never expect a “meeting” to occur as long as I remain atheistic in my expectation. There is no record of your deity “meeting” an atheist and overcoming his atheism. None of the biblical accounts were in reference to the xian god’s representatives converting atheists. All of the conversions were from other cults who had already been infected by the god germ. It was proselytizing and not evangelizing.

David: No, you will most certainly meet God, even as an atheist you will meet God. You can do so either gently or harshly, that is your own choice to make.

Rw: And the not-so-subtle threat continues to be your primary evangelical vehicle.

rw: Once I accept the existence of your imaginary deity I have already lost my claim to atheism and begun the journey towards the theistic definition of humility and open-mindedness. So your assertion that your deity creates this effect from the experience of meeting it, or epiphany if you will, is out of order. It requires me to believe your deity exists and additionally, that it has specific attributes enabling it to accomplish the outlandishly magical things theists claim it has and can do.

David: I am not asking you to do this. If you already believed in God you would not have any need to search for and find Him. Search for God as an atheist.

Rw: Why would I search for that which I have already found? I have found your deity existing in the imaginations of every man, woman and child infected with the germ. I need search no further. I have found all of your gods and expose them as what they are whenever they crop up to challenge my atheism. So far not a one has materialized to refute my challenge.

rw:Now, just to set the record even straiter, a genuine atheist is not one who is atheist by ignorance, that is to say, due to a lack of knowledge about your fantasy, (such as the condition of all people at birth), a genuine atheist is one by choice.

David: You are an atheist, then, by going contrary to your own inclinations. Am I correct in saying so?

Rw: Contrary to my own inclinations? Please elaborate.

rw: They began to experience discomfort with the contradictions and inconsistencies apparent in the comparison between a psuedo-reality pictured by the fantasy and the actual reality of their day to day experiences. Somewhere along this path they decided to tighten their intellectual sieve a bit and ask relevant questions instead of just accepting most theistic claims as true. From this point on healing began and the god germ was treated with skepticism until they were completely free from the symptoms.

David: I don't believe that you a free from the symptoms at all.

Rw: And your belief means what to me? You’ve already sufficiently demonstrated the irrationality of your beliefs so thoroughly that no one can be expected to take you seriously in this assertion.

David: You have a superficial atheism, a conscious atheism, built around the core of your personality which is still inclined to theism and perhaps is still theistic in its approach to reality.

Rw: And you have a superficial buzz going on from licking the wrong toads. May I suggest you lay off the hallucinogens for a while.

rw: Theism is an intellectual disease that can be treated and cured. I have the antidote. It’s called factual knowledge of the truth about reality.

David: I want you to describe and justify the antidote:

1. What is "factual knowledge'?

rw: That which is established as true and real.

2. What is "truth"?

rw: Here, let me allow you to answer that for us:
Rw: Then death is the ultimate stage of this disease. There is a difference between boldness and folly David.

David: True indeed.

rw: I prefer to teach by example.

3. What is "reality"?

rw: Everything outside of theism and mysticism

4. What components of your knowledge of reality are "factual" and which are "truth"?

rw: My factual knowledge holds a verisimilitude to reality

As a person’s intellectual sieve widens it has the effect of appearing to broaden their horizons of knowledge, creating a pleasant experience, (the acquisition of knowledge has always been edifying to humans, even if it isn’t true), it opens the sieve to receive the epiphany or imaginary experience of god.

David: This is the great benefits of theism.

Rw: You view the time and energy wasted in the acquisition of un-true knowledge as a great benefit?

Rw: I have high lighted this gem of a sentence because theists aren’t normally so brazen as to actually expose the true intent of their germ infected imagination.

David: I can afford to be brazen, I have nothing to hide.

Rw: And I can afford to expose the ludicrousness in your brazenness.

Rw: In other words I’m suppose to tremble and cower in fear of meeting your imaginary disease ridden deity because this mythical character had too much wine at supper and experienced a nightmare.

David: You are not supposed to, you will. The response is automatic and instictive.

Rw: Is that a fact. Been there done that. The entire response was idiomatic to my carelessness in allowing my intellect to become infected with a contagious disease. Now that I’ve been cured the only remnants of fear your germ has the power to invoke is contained in the knowledge and fact that its contaminants so deteriorate the mind that it becomes a willing instrument to the whims and wishes of its puppet masters and many such puppet masters are way beyond the point of no return and only seek to take as many victims down with them as they can manage to infect. The rest are just content to extort as luxurious a living from it as they can manage.

Rw: Poor Jeremiah didn’t have the arsenal of natural factual knowledge available today to help him recover from the disease and eventually gave in and became another carrier.

David: The world would be a poorer place without Jeremiah's response to God's inspiration.

Rw: To be sure. I’d have one fewer example of the old adage, “A mind is a terrible thing to waste.”

Rw: Again I invite anyone interested to take note. It isn’t everyday that a theist is so honest about the nature of the infection. The reason Baal worship lost its appeal was primarily because the advanced stages of the disease had begun to create a desire in their intellect for more psuedo-knowledge that wasn’t quite so dissonant to their reality. That is why xianity has splintered off into so many different factions, each one appealing to that need for greater complexity of input of psuedo-knowledge to be consistent to some particular aspect of reality that threatens the spread and advancement of the germ. Thus the continuous re-interpretation of the primary carrier, (the bible), responsible for the initial infection. All the other religious manifestations of this disease are suffering the same fate.

David: I am inclined to speak honestly and directly.

Rw: And I appreciate the inclination. It affords me many opportunities to expose the putrid rotting effects of this disease on the intellect infected by it.

Rw: Then death is the ultimate stage of this disease. There is a difference between boldness and folly David.

David: True indeed.

Rw: Need I say more?

Rw: No David, you haven’t understood me at all. There is a vast compendium of reality awaiting discovery by the human tools of perception, waiting to be assimilated into human comprehension, but none of it will give up its secrets via religion. Religion is powerless to advance man’s comprehension and perception of the real. Religion creates a psuedo-reality and super-imposes over that which exists. It places the blame on mankind in those areas where the two do not align and gives the credit to its imaginary deity where they do. It claims as proof of its deity those areas where the two don’t align and as evidence of its deity where they do. It is a disease of the intellect and nothing more. Sorry David.

David: You seem to have forgotten all those things which has already accomplished and continues to accomplish today.

Rw: This is incomprehensible, could you please restate your argument here more clearly?

David: I don't know what you are talking abot. Genesis 1 & 2 was translated allegorically long before science began learning the history of the Universe, the Earth and life.

Rw: And the allegory became irrelevant once science became relevant. That’s what I’m talking about.

David: Science itself is an allegory.

Rw: And a true one at that!

Rw: I’m sure they’ll appreciate your generosity. Why don’t you make that suggestion the next time you attend a religious service. In fact, stand up during the service and make it to the pastor in front of the entire congregation.

David: I would never behave so rudely.

Rw: What happened to the boldness? It was you what said you believed preachers ought to work. If you are going to be so bold David you must be so consistently or run the risk of hypocrisy.

David: That is a good question indeed.
Rw: Which one?

David: All of them.

Rw: Then we can anticipate no good answers?

Rw: No David, I’m not aware of any attributes listed by anyone that are common to all religions. I require further input by you to clarify and expand upon this universality of attributes.

David: Omniscience, Omnipotence, transcendence, incomprehensibility, mystery. These are the common attributes of God among all religions of the world.

Rw: And exist as symptoms of the disease which is also worldwide.

rw: Scientific rationality and atheistic naturalism are derivatives of factual verifiable consistently operational paradigms and methods of nature as it is. I couldn’t say the same about all philosophical concepts and I wouldn’t include speculations in any attestation of what is real, but you are trying to compare apples to oranges and it ain’t floating your boat.

David: Scientific rationality and atheistic naturalism are both constructs of the human mind, intrinsically subjective and therefore the product of human imagination/creativity.

Rw: Semantics notwithstanding, they have their basis in reality. The subjective comprehension of them is in the mind but the mind does not create the reality, it only perceives and defines it.

David: Theists have sinned and continue to sin. Religion has been aware of this from the beginning. Atheists also sin, and it has been reported that scientists sin.

Rw: Define sin.

David: God's fundamental law is expressed: Love God, Love your fellow humans. All sins are a violation of these two laws.

Rw: Then your god is a sinner.

Rw: To be sure, and don’t mind expressing their judgments by murdering us randomly and at will. This is a great contribution to mankind. What have they contributed again…oh yeah, FEAR. Isn’t that what you attempted to sell me on your imaginary deity with? It seems to be the only consistent thread running through every stage of the disease.

And further more, when I read shit like this it pisses me off. When I think about a mass grave in the middle of New York City and the trail of blood and bodies running through-out man’s history, all products of your disease, I get even madder. So let me set the record strait for you once and for all. I do not consider the contributions made by your disease eaten mysticism to be worthy of consideration. I, and my fellow Americans, have a vested interest in protecting our lives and liberty from this insidious germ.

David: Religion may have killed all those people, but it was science who killed a hundred thousand or so Japanese at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Rw: Would that be after the Japanese attacked and killed thousands of people at Pearl Harbor? Do we have no right to defend ourselves?

David: Science has developed more powerful and effective tools of killing for thousands of years.

Rw: Tools that always seem to find their way into the hands of aggressors made so by their religious disease.

David: The sins of religion are also the sins of science.

Rw: And science always cleans up the mess by purging the disease of the religious. Something your imaginary deity could never muster the courage to do himself. I guess god can’t commit suicide after all.

rw: Make no mistake about it. These are not just words. They are backed by the golden standard of action enabled by the minds and tools of our science. Whenever and where ever this disease has reached its final stage of death and attempts to deposit that death on the world stage it will be rooted out and eliminated with surgical skill and devastating results. We have the right to defend ourselves and will do so!

David: Science as the great Savior of humankind is an absurd and paradoxical concept.

Rw: Prove it!

David: Didn't science give us intercontinental ballistic missiles and 20,000 hydrogen bombs?

Rw: And it only took two to deter the rest of the would be germ infested fanatics of the world not to engulf us in another world war. It may take a few more in the future depending on our success in inoculating our progeny against the infection of all future theism and mysticism.

Science also gave you the ability to discuss your intellectual illness with me over a great distance via computer technology. Mankind will save himself.