Freethought & Rationalism Archive

JusticeMachine · 12-09-2002, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth:
Well, simple. I have faith that GOD's word is true.

Then it is true that god couldn't handle iron chariots?

Judges 1:19: “So the Lord was with Judah. And they drove out the mountaineers, but they could not drive out the inhabitants of the lowland, because they had chariots of iron.”

He describes himself that way, I choose to believe in him.

If you can't understand the infinite god, how do you know he's not lying? Perhaps something you don't know about god is that he's a liar, an evil god, out to deceive us?

GOD couldn't or wouldn't? Lack of action does not mean an inability to act.

And I suspect I would be able to tell if GOD were by the fruit his actions bare.

Is that what you are afraid of, that GOD may be lying to you? That he is really evil?

You seem very concerned about another persons subjective believes. I'm touch

Mageth · 12-09-2002, 03:23 PM

My point in saying that things like suicide, unwanted pragnacies and addictions is simple to point out that offend time we all do things that are a bit counter productive to our well being.

You don't believe in GOD, at that does not mean that you will partake of these things, however I'll bet you have done things which you regard as a mistake, and would correct if you had the opportunity. That is what I mean by not making sense.

Well, making mistakes is just part of life. Most of my mistakes seemed to make sense at the time. Personally, I try not to waste my time worrying about my past mistakes; to me, that's what wouldn't make sense.

And for your benifit, since you are obviously uncomfortable with quotes from the bible, then I will despence with them

I'm not uncomfortable with them, it's just that they don't carry much persuasive weight in some arguments. (There are exceptions, of course, as when one is discussing specific aspects of the bible). Feel free to use them, as long as I'm free to criticize them, such as pointing out, in the above case, that Jesus claiming he was the only way to God is in no way unique among religious teachings. Heck, I use bible quotes quite often, as in the above iron chariot example.

In regards to your comment on Allah, because he contradicts the new testament, the GOD of the new testament and Allah, can't be the same GOD. I'm sure a devout Muslim will agree with me on that.

I can say with certainty that either Allah exist, or GOD of the newtestament exist, or neither one exist. But they can't both exist. There is only room for one almighty, infinite GOD in the universe. We all can't be right, we could all be wrong, but that is where faith is derived from isn't it.

I reckon so. If you truly realize that you may be wrong, however, then you might be on the road to atheism. That's where I started out on my "deconversion" journey from xianity, after all.

Mageth · 12-09-2002, 03:35 PM

GOD couldn't or wouldn't? Lack of action does not mean an inability to act.

Well, the verse says the Tribe of Judah couldn't, though god was with them, not that god wouldn't.

And I suspect I would be able to tell if GOD were by the fruit his actions bare.

Hmm.

Jeremiah 20:7 - O LORD , you deceived me, and I was deceived; you overpowered me and prevailed.

2 Thessalonians 2:11 - For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Is that what you are afraid of, that GOD may be lying to you? That he is really evil?

I'm not "afraid" at all. I simply lack belief in god. My point was simply that if you can't know everything about god, there may be aspects of god which don't jive with what you believe (such as that he may be a liar).

But note the above passages; god does resort to deception and "delusion".

You seem very concerned about another persons subjective believes. I'm touch [sic]

Well, we are discussing subjective beliefs on an online forum, aren't we? Don't feel too touched; people discuss such things all the time around here.

[ December 09, 2002: Message edited by: Mageth ]

Jamie_L · 12-10-2002, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JusticeMachine:
It is much more valuable for my wife to choose to love me of her own free will than to have a mindless robot programmed to love me.

People throw out statements like this all the time and assume everyone agrees. On first glance I agree. But let's think more deeply. Is it more valuable?

If my wife were a robot, but behaved exactly as she does now, would she be of less value to me? Probably not. I would get all the same benefits from the relationship. And being programmed to love me would not necessarily entail a loss of other aspects of her free will. If she was literally programmed to behave with exactly the same push-and-pull that our relationship has, what would be different?

And really, isn't my wife programmed to love me? She had all these other choices before her, but the one that triggered the "I want to get married" response was me.

Is being programmed to feel something bad? If my wife hated me, but was then forced to love me, that might be bad. But if she just always wanted that because of some chip in her head instead of because of her nature and nurture, would she be worse off?

I'm not so sure that being programmed to feel a certain way is so "obviously" bad.

Flip it around: would I feel torn apart if tomorrow I found out I was a robot programmed to love my wife? It might be unsettling initially, but would I seek to change my programming? In the end, probably not. I'm happy. I love my wife. Why would I want to change that?

Getting back to free will and sin: would it bother me if I found out I was programmed not to commit murder? Would I demand to get reprogrammed so I was able to commit murder? I don't think so. What would be the point?

Jamie

[ December 10, 2002: Message edited by: Jamie_L ]

ManM · 12-10-2002, 10:44 AM

Jamie_L,

Quote:

Specifically, God values the freedom to do evil.

I wouldn't say that God values the freedom to do evil. Rather, I would think God values freedom as a means to an end. God created us in His image so that we would have the possibility of being like Him.

Quote:

If he is so displeased when we choose evil, then why does he value our ability to choose evil?

Our freedom opens the door for us to become sons of God. If God removes our freedom, He would be removing from us the possibility of becoming like Him. He would basically be giving up on His hope for us.

ManM · 12-10-2002, 10:47 AM

Jamie_L,

Quote:

Specifically, God values the freedom to do evil.

I wouldn't say that God values the freedom to do evil. Rather, I would think God values freedom as a means to an end. God created us in His image so that we would have the possibility of relating to each other in the same way that the persons of the trinity relate to each other.

Quote:

If he is so displeased when we choose evil, then why does he value our ability to choose evil?

Our freedom opens the door for us to become sons of God. If God removes our freedom, He would be removing from us the possibility of becoming like Him. He would basically be giving up on His hope for us.

Jamie_L · 12-12-2002, 07:54 AM

ManM,

In your view, does God have the ability to choose evil?

Jamie

JusticeMachine · 12-12-2002, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jamie_L:
ManM,

In your view, does God have the ability to choose evil?

Jamie

The problem with that question is the definition of Evil, from a biblical stand point.

Evil/Sin is going against GODs will. So to reask that question: Can GOD go against his own will?
I think not.

Philosoft · 12-12-2002, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JusticeMachine:


The problem with that question is the definition of Evil, from a biblical stand point.

Evil/Sin is going against GODs will. So to reask that question: Can GOD go against his own will?
I think not.

Well, it looks like you're caught in tautology hell. What is evil? Thoughts/actions that countermand God's will. What is God's will? To do things that are not evil. Implications? Two possibilities:

1. There is an independent objective standard of good/evil by which God decides which actions are good and which are evil. Thus, good and evil are not merely defined by God's will.

2. God decides arbitrarily which actions are good and which are evil. Thus, it is possible that the sets of good actions and evil actions might have been different than what they are.

Actually, I can think of a third possibility, but it seems entirely theologically unsatisfying, so I'll ignore it for now.

Jamie_L · 12-12-2002, 09:08 AM

JusticeMachine,

I am aware of that definition of evil, and I'm aware that my question to ManM makes little sense in light of that definition. However, I think ManM's earlier response implies a slightly differnt take on evil, which was where that question was going.

In light of your definition of evil, however, we get back to the original question: why does God value our ability to go against his will? As you have said, it is not a quality God possesses. If God wants us to act in accordance with his will, why give us the ability to act against it? Where is the value to God? If there is value in our ability to act against God's will, why does it displease God when we use that ability?

Jamie

12-09-2002, 03:35 PM	#23
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	GOD couldn't or wouldn't? Lack of action does not mean an inability to act. Well, the verse says the Tribe of Judah couldn't, though god was with them, not that god wouldn't. And I suspect I would be able to tell if GOD were by the fruit his actions bare. Hmm. Jeremiah 20:7 - O LORD , you deceived me, and I was deceived; you overpowered me and prevailed. 2 Thessalonians 2:11 - For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness. Is that what you are afraid of, that GOD may be lying to you? That he is really evil? I'm not "afraid" at all. I simply lack belief in god. My point was simply that if you can't know everything about god, there may be aspects of god which don't jive with what you believe (such as that he may be a liar). But note the above passages; god does resort to deception and "delusion". You seem very concerned about another persons subjective believes. I'm touch [sic] Well, we are discussing subjective beliefs on an online forum, aren't we? Don't feel too touched; people discuss such things all the time around here. [ December 09, 2002: Message edited by: Mageth ]</p>

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12-09-2002, 03:23 PM	#22
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	My point in saying that things like suicide, unwanted pragnacies and addictions is simple to point out that offend time we all do things that are a bit counter productive to our well being. You don't believe in GOD, at that does not mean that you will partake of these things, however I'll bet you have done things which you regard as a mistake, and would correct if you had the opportunity. That is what I mean by not making sense. Well, making mistakes is just part of life. Most of my mistakes seemed to make sense at the time. Personally, I try not to waste my time worrying about my past mistakes; to me, that's what wouldn't make sense. And for your benifit, since you are obviously uncomfortable with quotes from the bible, then I will despence with them I'm not uncomfortable with them, it's just that they don't carry much persuasive weight in some arguments. (There are exceptions, of course, as when one is discussing specific aspects of the bible). Feel free to use them, as long as I'm free to criticize them, such as pointing out, in the above case, that Jesus claiming he was the only way to God is in no way unique among religious teachings. Heck, I use bible quotes quite often, as in the above iron chariot example. In regards to your comment on Allah, because he contradicts the new testament, the GOD of the new testament and Allah, can't be the same GOD. I'm sure a devout Muslim will agree with me on that. I can say with certainty that either Allah exist, or GOD of the newtestament exist, or neither one exist. But they can't both exist. There is only room for one almighty, infinite GOD in the universe. We all can't be right, we could all be wrong, but that is where faith is derived from isn't it. I reckon so. If you truly realize that you may be wrong, however, then you might be on the road to atheism. That's where I started out on my "deconversion" journey from xianity, after all.

12-12-2002, 07:54 AM	#27
Jamie_L Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: U.S. Posts: 2,565	ManM, In your view, does God have the ability to choose evil? Jamie

12-12-2002, 09:08 AM	#30
Jamie_L Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: U.S. Posts: 2,565	JusticeMachine, I am aware of that definition of evil, and I'm aware that my question to ManM makes little sense in light of that definition. However, I think ManM's earlier response implies a slightly differnt take on evil, which was where that question was going. In light of your definition of evil, however, we get back to the original question: why does God value our ability to go against his will? As you have said, it is not a quality God possesses. If God wants us to act in accordance with his will, why give us the ability to act against it? Where is the value to God? If there is value in our ability to act against God's will, why does it displease God when we use that ability? Jamie

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