Tercel

Hey Kent, I've just noticed you're from Napier! I'm from Christchurch myself...

No particular reason. There are certainly claims of Christians raising people from the dead on other occaisions, and although I haven't personally investigated any of those claims they don't seem to me to be prima facie unbelievable.

Why necessarily? If a people are only very rarely raised from the dead and it alway happens in a Christian Religious context (such as Jesus, or them being prayed for etc), then surely I am more likely to conclude that "Dead people naturally stay dead, but the Christian God occasionally intervenes" rather than having it undermine my belief in natural regularities?

Not necessarily. If I see the violations only ever happen in a religious context, then I am more likely to accept them as miracles without it affecting my belief in natural regularities.
If God often raised people from death in no religious context and without rhyme or reason then obviously we wouldn't be able to conclude miracles, and the whole thing would serve only to undermine our confidence in the natural laws.

Of course. However we belief that for the vast majority of the time the natural laws act consistently and hence that such processes as Science are possible via methodological naturalism.

Tercel

If you're trying to suggest my belief is circular then you're not entirely right.
I presuppose the accuracy of my perceptions. (It's only pragmatic)
I later find justification for this presupposition because of my belief in the Christian God which I gain using my perceptions. Hence my worldview is consistent. (Unlike Theophilus I don't presuppose the entire worldview)

That "axiom" though is part of what my theism is.

Kent Stevens

Hi Tercel

So you are someone else from New Zealand. Good to come across some other people from this lovely westernised country.

Then you have to restrict God to only performing miracles in a religious context. How do we not know that God does not break natural laws for the fun of it? Thinking about God's characteristics in my mind is like speculating about the Easter Bunny's characteristics. The Easter Bunny being good or bad is pure speculation as is the belief in the Easter Bunny itself. Anyway, we agree that God would have to break a few natural laws to perform miracles that presumably have a "religious context" to them.

dostf

Miracles, the supernatural,-where would they be without the human?

E_muse

The same place that any attempted explanation would be that is based around human perception.

E_muse

I am intrigued by the attempt (by atheist thinkers) to separate 'natural' and 'supernatural' in a way that is mutually exclusive and implies that the two cannot co-exist.

This has certainly not been the case in the past. Many great scientists have also been believers.. (Newton can be numbered among them) and as far as I understand, the desire for knowledge about our world has, in part, been fuelled by the belief that if the world has been created by an intelligent being then it should (at least to some degree) be understandable and explainable to other intelligent beings (us). The idea that a belief in a supernatural creator somehow stifles scientific interest or progress seems at least wholly inaccurate and historically indefensible. The Church may seek to stifle such things... but that is another story!

Whilst recognizing its ancient cosmology, Genesis outlines a creation event in which the universe is created to be self governing and self perpetuating and so in no way procludes a creator nor an attempted scientific explanation as to the mechanisms which determine this process.

Theli

But as it is now, the percentage of scientists who believes in god is significally low.

But this is ofcourse what "the god of the gaps argument" is all about. The larger the gaps are in scientific knowledge, the more present god becomes.

Asha'man

But miracles are reported from just about every religious context that exists. I’ve heard of miracles from Christians, Jews, Moslems, Hindi, Shinto, Buddhists, Wiccans, half a dozen Pagan flavors, etc. As a specific example, raising the dead is a fairly common part of Voodoo, even if the specifics look a bit different. Perhaps your conclusion should be “Dead people naturally stay dead, unless you believe reports from a religious believer.”

dostf

e muse:

Yes human seems to be the key here.

E_muse

Unfortunately I'm not up with recent statistics or polls. I'll do a little research. It would be good to see some exact figures.