Calzaer

Notice they come HERE, get thouroughly trounced, and THEN spew out the "pearls before swine" vomit. If they really believed that crap, they wouldn't show up here in the first place.

Oink oink oink.

EstherRose

If it were only to point out "you're wrong" and then we could have a debate, I would have been more than happy to comply. The debate is why I'm here, not to convert you all like some of you seem to think. If you read some of Calzaer's posts, they are not at all nice or productive. They are mock only. So I figured what's the point in responding. The comments such as

pretty much told me it was pointless to try a debate. Since there does seem to be a renewed interest, I've copied some of the posts here and will attempt to address them during the down time this weekend. I realize that you all think little of my beliefs, but I would hope that all of you, not just some of you, would have respect for an individual.

EstherRose

Personal preference I guess. It’s not why I do it


Kind of a moot point. The religions or sects that disagree with us on this issue, JW’s, Mormons and so on are regarded by Christians as false religions.

I'd be happy to.

About bearing good fruits:

Matthew 7
15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Matthew 12
33"Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit. 34You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. 35The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him.

Luke 6
43"No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. 44Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers. 45The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.

John 15
1"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

The fruits of the Spirit:

Galatians 5
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

Phillipians 1
9And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight, 10so that you may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless until the day of Christ, 11filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ--to the glory and praise of God.

Colossians 1
9For this reason, since the day we heard about you, we have not stopped praying for you and asking God to fill you with the knowledge of his will through all spiritual wisdom and understanding. 10And we pray this in order that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and may please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God, 11being strengthened with all power according to his glorious might so that you may have great endurance and patience, and joyfully 12giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light. 13For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

James 3
17But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. 18Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness

A lack of fruit:

Jude 1
12These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm--shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted--twice dead.

The story about the rich man:

Mark 10
17As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
18"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone. 19You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.' "
20"Teacher," he declared, "all these I have kept since I was a boy."
21Jesus looked at him and loved him. "One thing you lack," he said. "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
22At this the man's face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.
23Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!"
24The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, "Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! 25It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
26The disciples were even more amazed, and said to each other, "Who then can be saved?"
27Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God."


Maybe you misunderstood and I wasn’t clear. Jesus was pointing out the rich man was breaking the commandment, not Jesus. The rich man could not let go of breaking the commandment.

Ha ha ha. There are a great many things to learn in the bible. I have not taken any seminary classes. I am not a bible scholar. To my shame, I did not even read or study the bible as intently as I should have. So yes I did pretty much ignore the prophecy aspects of the bible. It is my belief system but I treated the study of the bible as something less than I should have. That does not invalidate my beliefs. It only points out a flaw in my character



Had Calzaer expressed any real interest in debate, I would have complied. Had he merely shown me his disagreements with what I posted, I would have responded. Since his post was something about giant woodchucks and toothmarks, I assumed a real debate would not happen.

I did not come here to convert anyone. I came here to discuss the bible since you have an entire section devoted to biblical criticism. I don’t give up if people are unreceptive. Like everyone else, I quit responding if I either have nothing I wish to to contribute, I run out of valuable free time, or the discussion itself has degenerated to a point where it is no a longer meaningful discussion.

I will get to the rest of the responses as I am able. I'm sure you'll have more "work" for me by then.

EstherRose

Jeremiah 22
28 Is this man Jehoiachin a despised, broken pot,
an object no one wants?
Why will he and his children be hurled out,
cast into a land they do not know?
29 O land, land, land,
hear the word of the LORD !
30 This is what the LORD says:
"Record this man as if childless,
a man who will not prosper in his lifetime,
for none of his offspring will prosper,
none will sit on the throne of David
or rule anymore in Judah."

To answer your question: I don’t see where this disqualifies Jesus as the Messiah. Jesus is not the born of this lineage (through Joseph) but is the legal heir to the lineage. Not quite the same thing.

The begats thing in the bible is another area that I didn’t pay any attention to. Thank you for pointing out something new to me. Next time I read the Old Testament, I will pay closer attention to the lineage. It is another area that didn’t really matter to me. I have all the proof I need that the Bible is the inspired word of God, that He exists, and that Jesus is the Messiah.

I have the proof of the Holy Spirit, a connection to God I did not have before I accepted Jesus into my life. I wish there were a way I could describe what that means. Not to convert you, but just to let you know what the difference is.

Perhaps this would help. If you are happily married (I’m not implying that aetheists don’t have happy marriages), then you have a connection with your spouse, a close bond that has you tuned in to their thoughts and feelings. Some of you may finish each other’s sentences, have the same thoughts at the same time, that kind of thing. Multiply that bond thousand fold and you have some rough idea of what it is like to have the Spirit in your life. The Spirit is a part of us. We are metamorphisized into a new creature. I really wish I could explain it better.

Javaman

I'm trying to get this in before the server change

Thanks for the posts EstherRose. I'm sorry you felt bad enough about the above to not refute any of Calzaer's argument (I admit mine aren't that great but, at 34 years old, I've only just begun to read the Bible) but, firstly, he wasn't addressing you and, secondly, I think many of his points were valid and deserve a response. Perhaps you should re-read this thread.

Thanks again. I'll read your passages.

EstherRose

Such bitterness.

May I ask where you came up with some of these things? No one I know believes the Sermon on the Mount thing only applies to Jews. Or that James was a Jewish follower and therefore his words don’t count. Plenty of Christians talk the talk and walk the walk. The part about providing for birds and clothing flowers was to chastise believers for worrying about anything.

This is what Jesus said about charity on the Sermon on the Mount.

Matthew 6
"Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.
2"So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 3But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

And what he said about the birds and lilies of the field.

Matthew 6
25"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? 26Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life?
28"And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' 32For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

Christians see the Lord provide for our needs all of the time. He does it in ways that reminds us that He is in control. He loves us and will take care of us. We do take the leap of faith. You just don’t notice it.

As far as walk the walk, I have been chastised once by a moderator here for discussing charity so I feel unable to write about what I do or how I walk the walk that way. You’ll just have to accept the fact that I do.

Calzaer

If he wasn't born of the lineage (through Jospeh), he's not a descendant of Abraham/David. You can't have it both ways.

EstherRose

He is the Son of God. His lineage through Joseph is a legal heir not biological one. The biological lineage is through Mary, His mother.

EstherRose

Isaiah 7
14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.

Isaiah 8
8 and sweep on into Judah, swirling over it,
passing through it and reaching up to the neck.
Its outspread wings will cover the breadth of your land,
O Immanuel!"

The 2 verses from Isaiah show first the Messianic prophecy regarding the promised Messiah, then showing that the name Immanuel was a title not a mere name. In Isaiah 8:8 Isaiah calls out “Oh God With Us” not just a name, but an acknowledgement that the Lord is with them. So it is with Jesus. He is God with us. And Mary did acknowledge that Jesus is God with us.

winstonjen

But not once in the gospels is Immanuel used to describe Jesus.