Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Philosoft · 01-23-2003, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Goliath

It is the logical negation of the proposition "I hold a belief that X exists." What is incoherent about it?

Because it isn't an English sentence. What part of speech is "saldfjag"?

Goliath · 01-23-2003, 12:12 PM

Philosoft,

Quote:

Originally posted by Philosoft
Because it isn't an English sentence. What part of speech is "saldfjag"?

That's a good question. I think it's been thought of as a noun (usually X is a noun when one says "I don't believe that X exists.").

Sincerely,

Goliath

Philosoft · 01-23-2003, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Goliath

That's a good question. I think it's been thought of as a noun (usually X is a noun when one says "I don't believe that X exists.").

I'm honestly not sure how to classify it. In a sentence like, "If a 'saldfjag' existed, it would be a miniature pink unicorn," I would call it a noun because it has a predicate referent. I have a great deal of difficulty with the notion of a noun that does not refer to a person, place, thing or idea

capnkirk · 01-23-2003, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Goliath
capnkirk,

Irrelevant. I didn't say that I wouldn't have to know what a saldfjag is to believe that a saldfjag exists, and I didn't say that I wouldn't have to know what a saldfjag is in order to believe that a saldfjag does not exist.

I did say that I do not need to know what a saldfjag is to not believe that a saldfjag exists.

Even if your scenario were true, I would be holding no incorrect beliefs, nor making any false assertions, since I did not (and do not) hold any belief regarding the existence of a saldfjag.

My point was/is, that you can't be sure you don't believe in saldfjags until you can ascertain that saldfjag isn't just an unfamiliar name for something you DO in fact believe in. That is all the ground I am willing to yield to Amie's view...and it's precious little at that. I am attempting to point out that the saldfjag example contains a possibility for error that your assertion to Amie relative to belief in the existence of god doesn't.

This technical concession is in no way meant to imply that the above-described caveat has not been satisfied in your assertion that you don't need Amie's god-definition to be certain you don't believe in god(s). In the example case, saldfjag was a completely alien label, and therefore required preclusion of one additional possibility (simple lack of recognition), in order to maintain certainty. In the case of the term god, no such lack of recognition is reasonably possible (in view of extensive previous vetting of the term), therefore my caveat does NOT APPLY to the latter.

(Chalk it up to my programmer background. For a program to work reliably, provision for every logically possible combination must be made...you just overlooked one, and I noticed it.)

Novowels · 01-23-2003, 02:44 PM

Goliath,

Yes, I meant to say "belief system." You do have a belief system (maybe I should say worldview?) for supernatural creatures like angels, and that is a lack of belief. Therefore you do not believe angels exist -- even if you don't know what an angel is. It is, I'm sure, but one mythological creature in a long line of insane concepts that you lack belief in.

I think we're saying the same thing, but coming from different viewpoints. I'm saying, you already hold the "I don't believe angels exist" (because of a lack of belief) position before knowing what an "angel" is. I am not saying that you are making an assertation like "I believe angels do not exist."

Infinity Lover · 01-23-2003, 03:12 PM

You don't need to know what you don't believe in, but you do need to know what a specific something is, in order to state that you don't believe in that certain something... otherwise the statement doesn't mean anything.

In general you need to know what a statement means, in order to honestly make it.

Does this clear things up for anyone?

And has it eluded anyone that the latter is the point Amie was trying to make?

Quote:

Originally posted by Amie
If someone asked me if I believed in saldfjag I would not say "no" I would say "what the hell is that?" then I could formulate an opinion.

Infinity Lover · 01-23-2003, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by THE_LEGENDARY_HQB
As an Atheist, I view the "God" concept as similar to this illustration. I have never gotten a coherent answer when I ask "what is God?" Therefore, after awhile, I simply throw up my hands and say "this is absurd, I see no reason to believe it".

So yes, I concur with Goliath 100%.

Even though your stated lack of belief is based on dodgy definitions, rather than the lack of definition?

Amie · 01-23-2003, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mad Kally
Amie, I was in an accident once which put me into a coma for a month. I died on the OR table and was revived twice. I saw some very strange things in vivid detail during that time, as well as the entire month after surgery. I can still remember the people I met in my dreams/hallucinations? None of them had anything to do with god/angels, etc. But I know what I saw was just as real as what you saw. Or should I say it seemed real at the time and is still vividly real in my memory. I'm sure there are people who would say the nice lady I met was an angel.
However I'm aware that it was a combination of hypoxia and morphine. You are an RN same as I am. My hallucinations could have been interpreted in a different way in every different religion or culture around the world. I didn't see an angel because I do not believe they exist. I met a real nice lady, I traveled with an Indian tribe and so on. I even went on a tour of Europe. I remember the peoples clothes they were wearing, I can still see their faces. The beautiful places I visited. All of this is permanently burned into my brain without any need for faith.

Hi Kally
I understand what you are saying. I have considered the pharmacological effects of any meds and my injuries, lack of oxygen as well. I believe that I saw an angel and it happened on more than one occasion. I understand that you attribute your experience to morphine and hypoxia, I don't attribute mine to those things.

Amie · 01-23-2003, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Novowels
Hello.

Hi Novowels

Quote:

You have a belief system for everything.

I disagree but I certainly understand what you are saying here...

Quote:

Let's do an example. I do not believe in disembodied spirits or entities. That includes angels, demons, ghosts, and gods. Therefore, whatever word one chooses to associate with one of these spiritual entities, whether it's "the archangel Michael" or "the grand jumvoloxiderikan" or "the invisible pink unicorn," I already have a belief whether that thing exists, even if I haven't heard of one of them. I may have to ask, "what the hell does that word mean?" but I already have the belief system in place. That belief can be based on faith, or it could be based on experience, or it could be based on scientific understanding.

But if you have to ask "what the hell does that mean" then how can you already have that belief system in place? Unless of course you are talking about a general belief system and not a belief pertaining to one specific thing.

Quote:

I cannot remember who said it, but one of my favorite quotes is:
"Words are simply small noises that hide the truth."

I have not heard that before and I like it as well...

Quote:

The last thing I had faith in was that I could help everyone in the world come to their senses and become nontheistic.

why would you want everyone to share *your* beliefs and to think like you? There would still be problems in the world...I am not at all trying to provoke you. My question is a sincere one Novowels.
have a good one~
Amie

Amie · 01-23-2003, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by THE_LEGENDARY_HQB
Greetings Amie, hope you're not getting too offended on this thread!

Hi THE_LEGENDARY_HQB

nah no harm no foul...

Quote:

Ahhhhhh, but what if you couldn't get a clear definition of what a saldfjag was? What if you met people from the Church of the Risen Sadlfjag, The True Church of the Saldfjag, The Church of Saldfjag-Saldfjagist-With Signs & Wonders, and the Holy Roman Saldfjag Church, and each person had a different and often wildly variating definition of what one was, yet none of them could provide any solid evidence for its existence?

yes that could be confusing, but I wouldnt necessarily need a clear definition, just something to work with.

Quote:

As an Atheist, I view the "God" concept as similar to this illustration. I have never gotten a coherent answer when I ask "what is God?" Therefore, after awhile, I simply throw up my hands and say "this is absurd, I see no reason to believe it".

I understand. I think if I walked down the street and asked several people "what is God" I would get all different answers. However if you say to somebody "I don't believe there is a god" surely you must know what that is you "don't" believe in. If someone walked up to you and asked you for your definition of God what would you say?

LEGENDARY HQB, Philosoft, capnkirk I don't see much of a difference between saying "I believe there are no gods" and saying "I dont believe there is a god" Maybe a thin line but really "disbelieving" and "lacking a belief" wouldnt you say they are one and the same?

01-23-2003, 02:44 PM	#125
Novowels Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Sydney Posts: 1,658	ReRE Goliath, Yes, I meant to say "belief system." You do have a belief system (maybe I should say worldview?) for supernatural creatures like angels, and that is a lack of belief. Therefore you do not believe angels exist -- even if you don't know what an angel is. It is, I'm sure, but one mythological creature in a long line of insane concepts that you lack belief in. I think we're saying the same thing, but coming from different viewpoints. I'm saying, you already hold the "I don't believe angels exist" (because of a lack of belief) position before knowing what an "angel" is. I am not saying that you are making an assertation like "I believe angels do not exist."

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