Freethought & Rationalism Archive

08-30-2002, 04:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kent Stevens:
<strong>.

Anyway, religion is the exception to things that we classify as delusion or madness. I believe in having a society tolerant of other beliefs, but I am clear on what I think of religion.</strong>

Well I do not believe in freedom of religion but would go along with freedom from religion. In Antro 101 we once learned that the mythology was for the survival and prosperity of tribe and so I do not understand why we do not follow what we teach. One of them must be wrong.

abe smith · 08-30-2002, 05:07 AM

As the/your assertion of an "omniscient being" is not-demonstrable, Person, any discussion based upon that assertion is no-nothin.

"Assertion is not demonstration." ya know.

08-30-2002, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by abe smith:
<strong>As the/your assertion of an "omniscient being" is not-demonstrable, Person, any discussion based upon that assertion is no-nothin.

"Assertion is not demonstration." ya know.</strong>

But abe, if ignorance can be demonstrated omniscience must conceivably be possible. The problem is that one must be omniscient to comprehand this.

Jove · 09-09-2002, 06:52 AM

Wouldn't God exist both in time and out of time, due to omnipresence?

Keith Russell · 09-09-2002, 08:02 AM

Greetings:

I think it is the wrong approach to try to discover what characteristics an 'omniscient' being might possess.

Reality contradicts all of the 'omni' characterstics supposedly possessed by 'God'.

Rather than trying to figure out what an omniscient, or omnipresent, or omnipotent being could or would do (or not do), I think the contradiction inherent in the 'omni' characteristics make it clear that a 'God' possessing them could not exist.

Christian Apologetics claims that God is omnipresent, and yet at the same time claims that God cannot abide the presence of 'sin', and that Hell is an eternity 'out of the presence of God'.

Yet, if God is 'omnipresent', then there is no where that God isn't, no place away from God's presence--and no where that God can hide from anything, including 'sin'.

God's omnipotence is often stated to mean that God can only do whatever is 'possible', yet isn't it God who is believed to have determined what is--and what isn't--possible?

Aren't miracles supposedly events which can't happen (people raised from the dead, tiny amounts of food which nonetheless feed thousands, water transmuting to wine, seas parting, etc.) but nonetheless, because of 'God's' 'power', do happen?

So, rather than trying to figure out what capabilities these 'omni' characteristics give to 'God', I think it's far more rational to use them to show that an 'omni'-- God cannot exist.

Keith.

GPLindsey · 09-15-2002, 07:09 AM

Another dilemma with God being eternal and omniscient is that it takes away his ability to be the author of "God's Great Plan." As has been pointed out in this thread several times, if God is all-knowing, then he already knew every action or decision he was ever going to take throughout eternity. If so, then his Great Plan must have existed fully formed in his mind through all eternity, because there could never have been a point where God did not know what his Plan would be. The Plan never had a point when it did not exist, therefore God never deliberated to come up with his Plan.

If something is "created," then it didn't exist previously. Since the Plan existed forever in God's mind, God didn't create it. Some Creator!

It's all rubbish, of course--there is no God and there is no Plan.

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08-30-2002, 05:07 AM	#32
abe smith Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: springfield, MA. USA Posts: 2,482	As the/your assertion of an "omniscient being" is not-demonstrable, Person, any discussion based upon that assertion is no-nothin. "Assertion is not demonstration." ya know.

09-09-2002, 06:52 AM	#34
Jove Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: North Carolina Posts: 63	Wouldn't God exist both in time and out of time, due to omnipresence?

09-09-2002, 08:02 AM	#35
Keith Russell Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Overland Park, Kansas Posts: 1,336	Greetings: I think it is the wrong approach to try to discover what characteristics an 'omniscient' being might possess. Reality contradicts all of the 'omni' characterstics supposedly possessed by 'God'. Rather than trying to figure out what an omniscient, or omnipresent, or omnipotent being could or would do (or not do), I think the contradiction inherent in the 'omni' characteristics make it clear that a 'God' possessing them could not exist. Christian Apologetics claims that God is omnipresent, and yet at the same time claims that God cannot abide the presence of 'sin', and that Hell is an eternity 'out of the presence of God'. Yet, if God is 'omnipresent', then there is no where that God isn't, no place away from God's presence--and no where that God can hide from anything, including 'sin'. God's omnipotence is often stated to mean that God can only do whatever is 'possible', yet isn't it God who is believed to have determined what is--and what isn't--possible? Aren't miracles supposedly events which can't happen (people raised from the dead, tiny amounts of food which nonetheless feed thousands, water transmuting to wine, seas parting, etc.) but nonetheless, because of 'God's' 'power', do happen? So, rather than trying to figure out what capabilities these 'omni' characteristics give to 'God', I think it's far more rational to use them to show that an 'omni'-- God cannot exist. Keith.

09-15-2002, 07:09 AM	#36
GPLindsey Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 221	Another dilemma with God being eternal and omniscient is that it takes away his ability to be the author of "God's Great Plan." As has been pointed out in this thread several times, if God is all-knowing, then he already knew every action or decision he was ever going to take throughout eternity. If so, then his Great Plan must have existed fully formed in his mind through all eternity, because there could never have been a point where God did not know what his Plan would be. The Plan never had a point when it did not exist, therefore God never deliberated to come up with his Plan. If something is "created," then it didn't exist previously. Since the Plan existed forever in God's mind, God didn't create it. Some Creator! It's all rubbish, of course--there is no God and there is no Plan.

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